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Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#561

Post by seadan83 »

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #310
LAC-Tech wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read the original manifesto and principles, and quite frankly I'm not that impressed with them either. Some of the principles are actively harmful, like welcoming changing requirements late in the process.

Yep. "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools" OK, not terrible, but why not "interactions and tools over individuals and processes"? De-emphasize individual's egos and ritualized processes, focus on the things that get work done and communication between entities. "Working software over comprehensive documentation" Tends to make very frustrating-to-use software, because it's never fully working and has…

Keep in mind the agile manifesto authors were consultants, working as consultants, and the manifesto is largely in the context of software consultancy.

A lot of the points in the manifesto turn out to be slightly redundant. Comprehensive documentation, as entered into a tool, is wasted time when what you need to do is spend time with the customer developing their ideas into good software.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#562

Post by MiyamotoAkira »

jcbrand wrote: post #94
digitalsushi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three years ago I was stuck at a huge fortune 100 with all the ceremonies, business language, and paycheck collectors. I started to shop around. I found an amazing place, a company that was a software company not not a company that happened to write some software. The interviews went amazing, everything was Star Trek utopian future amazing, it was like the fantasy I had about where I wanted to work had manifested. I…

> so I hung out in the lobby for several hours waiting for anyone brave enough to get me to the badge people Did you consider asking someone going in or out to help you get a badge or to put you into contact with the right person? Sounds like you passively waited for someone to come and help you, which might be fine for a short while, but eventually it's better to take action. I've never heard of a "professional benc…

Being in the bench is not unusual for Consultancy companies, where there is no necessarily alignment between finishing with a client and starting with the next one. Or even starting directly on a client when you join them.

Quite useful time to spend learning.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#563

Post by fabioborellini »

lelanthran wrote: post #506
SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools" OK, not terrible, but why not "interactions and tools over individuals and processes"? De-emphasize individual's egos and ritualized processes, focus on the things that get work done and communication between entities. "Working software over comprehensive documentation" Tends to make very frustrating-to-use software, because it's never fully working and has…

> "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" TLDR: Businesses purchase development effort in terms of contracts, and the contract is almost always "You will deliver $X for $Y amount, in $Z months or less" . Agile is the opposite of that as far as business is concerned - "We will pay $A per hour until our money runs out or we are satisfied with what we get" . I've never understood this one, to be honest. Busin…

This is a great piece. My software engineering training just held the assumption that the world runs on agile processes by now. Waterfall-like processes were a historical reference and a failure.

Since external customers and non-swe stakeholders expect binding contracts and even waterfall, I would consider it essential to learn how to interface agile processes with the said contract-driven stakeholders. Telling them that we are trying our best just doesn’t work.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#564

Post by rerdavies »

gymbeaux wrote: post #240
kraig911 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x times this. It's a weird thing our profession. There's a horrible but apt (misogynistic even) saying. Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that…

I like Agile, but I hate “Agile” (that is, how Agile is interpreted and implemented by the management of the companies I’ve worked at). I worked at Allstate years ago, and was on the team that piloted Agile (Scrum). It was done by the book, and I thought it was awesome. We had a quick scrum meeting each day, and the retros and plannings were only on Wednesdays. Sprints ended on Wednesdays. Most companies have their s…

Wednesday to Wednesday is brilliant! Thanks.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#565

Post by RHSman2 »

davidw wrote: post #422
rintakumpu wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely. Though there are exceptions. Led Zeppelin comes to mind first.

I think part of the idea was that in an actual band that has been a band for a while, they usually find a way of working together that includes "difficult conversations" and saying no, and sometimes listening to one person's vision rather than tiptoeing around egos.

This is the long term way to greatness. In companies and life.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#566

Post by pillefitz »

rco8786 wrote: post #30
osigurdson wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> 5 people on a system that has about 40 users Gosh, that is expensive software!

Seriously. It’s hard to imagine a group of 40 people that would need a sufficient velocity of changes/new features to warrant 5 full time engineers.

Any trading application, where markets are constantly changing, new financial products included, new models developed etc.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#567

Post by rerdavies »

tjrDL6MjB2Zwwa wrote: post #309
kraig911 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x times this. It's a weird thing our profession. There's a horrible but apt (misogynistic even) saying. Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that…

> Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I'm not sure I understand what this means, can someone clarify for me?

Philosophy is for unhappy people.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#569

Post by lelanthran »

rerdavies wrote: post #560
lelanthran wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" TLDR: Businesses purchase development effort in terms of contracts, and the contract is almost always "You will deliver $X for $Y amount, in $Z months or less" . Agile is the opposite of that as far as business is concerned - "We will pay $A per hour until our money runs out or we are satisfied with what we get" . I've never understood this one, to be honest. Busin…

A good friend of mine worked for HP Consulting, which at the time was using heavyweight waterfall method. Out of curiosity, I asked her how well they hit their schedules and costs. "Oh, we hit our schedules and costs 100% of the time", she said. I was incredulous, so I pressed her on the point. "Well, compared to the contracted schedules and costs, we run 200% over on average by the time we deliver. But what happens…

> And every time a requirement changes, we add time and money. A lot of time and money. More than enough to make up for any actual overruns.

...

> In short, "We will deliver $X for $Y amount, in $Z months or less" is a total scam.

How is that a scam? "We will deliver $X in $Y months for $Z money" is easily predictable by the client when the client wants to change $X.

If the client doesn't change $X, the client can understand what they will pay and when they will get it.

When the client changes $X to $X+a, they still understand that delivery will be "$x+a in $Y+b months for $Z+c money". In fact, the original contract they signed made it clear to them what the cost and time was for changing requirements.

More to the point, when they want to make a change, they can balance the need for the change against the cost and time. Even better, because they know these things upfront, someone at the client will have to approve the cost and delivery time for the new requirements. That person is not going to give the supplier a blank cheque.

It's a good deal better than "We deliver working parts until you are satisfied or until you run out of money. We cannot tell you in advance how much this will cost and how long it will take."

I mean, if experienced developers are unable to get their software development supplier to deliver with only a small margin of money/time overruns, what hops is there for the procurement person at any company?

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#570

Post by bennyelv »

jxramos wrote: post #322
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #6

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

I forget what job it was I was interviewing for but I remember being stunned at the open lack of process they had in place for trying to bother unifying all these teams to be on the same platform framework etc and instead deliberately let sub teams work with tooling that worked for them and didn't create a lot of overhead trying to coordinate and sync and share a common codebase. Every place prior to that day I had o…

I work at a company that's trying to come out of the other side of this kind of approach. Let me tell you, it might feel good while you're doing it but in 5 years time it will be a hot mess of unmaintainable garbage! There are hidden costs in trying to align as you go, but there are potentially company ending costs in not.

You're right that there is no promised land, but the quest to reach it prevents you regressing into hell.

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