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Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a slight implication because it only covers men that women are the source of unhappiness (e.g. the nagging wife trope), but I agree it's trivial and likely unintentional. Agree with sibling, just as applicable as "happy married people are happy partners, unhappily married people are great philosophers".

[flagged]

> Was Aristotle misogynistic?

Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle%27s_views_on_women

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x times this. It's a weird thing our profession. There's a horrible but apt (misogynistic even) saying. Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that…

> agile has killed the happiness...meetings...rituals...meta-work...not actual productivity. All of that isn't actual agile. It's Fauxgile and has nothing to do with what agile is about, which is about removing impediments to productivity, removing meetings (why were there standups? Because they shouldn't exist in the first place, and if you absolutely positively can't avoid them then at least make them as short as p…

I've read the original manifesto and principles, and quite frankly I'm not that impressed with them either.

Some of the principles are actively harmful, like welcoming changing requirements late in the process.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#243

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

> Find a company that values programming and real productivity What's an example of a company that values "programming" over the business?

A company that values programming over its business won't stay around long (see the recent front page submission called something like "your stack is not your product"). Sales is what covers payroll.

However a company that values programming over managing will prosper more than a company that values managing more than programming. Just enough management that everybody knows they're working on the right thing is best for all (including the managers).

Process for its own sake (I'm looking particularly at cargo-culting "agile" astronauts) sucks the life out of everybody involved.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#244

I tend to like engineering, but that's because I'm sort of a completionist. I like finishing stuff. I like getting to the point where I no longer have to worry about it, and I do a good job, the first time, so I no longer have to worry about it. I like to F^3: Finite, Focused, and Finished: - Finite: I know what "done" looks like. Tasks have a discrete beginning and end, though the schedule may be fuzzy. - Focused: N…

This is me. Sadly I switched roles into a people code by their pants and projects sometimes ship type of company and now I'm on existential pain every day.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#245

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

I am here to say that both "too much" and "too little" process are shitty. I have been at companies with too much process (medical devices) and companies with WAY to little process, and both places are an absolute nightmare. What you want is a process that ensures features are spec'ed out properly, testing is performed, deployment is smooth, and etc., with a lot less or zero of the "put your hours into the Jira ticket" type bullshit.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> agile has killed the happiness...meetings...rituals...meta-work...not actual productivity. All of that isn't actual agile. It's Fauxgile and has nothing to do with what agile is about, which is about removing impediments to productivity, removing meetings (why were there standups? Because they shouldn't exist in the first place, and if you absolutely positively can't avoid them then at least make them as short as p…

Agile is like socialism at times.

Bad idea in the first place, and when implemented horrifying beyond belief?

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#247

The strangest thing is that I love refactoring, and I sort of assume that it's another one of those things that programmers love to do, but managers keep pushing us to limit our time and move on to things that are visible to customers. But now I'm wondering if that's not the case. Or maybe it's just the sort of programmer who loves abstractions and is cast as a "perfectionist". I'm currently getting my footing now as…

> is there an angle for me to pitch myself as "The guy who will clean up your code base"? You sort of answer your own question unfortunately. > managers keep pushing us to limit our time and move on to things that are visible to customers. So if a manager only values things visible to a customer, why would they hire an expensive consultant work on things that aren't valuable to them?

They don't stop it they just limit it. It's very difficult for them to know the right amount but unless they're totally ignorant they know it's not zero. If the code is a mess it may become apparent to them that they need to increase that threshold for a spurt.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#248
post #183

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

I think the real "unicorns" are * Small/medium size companies where you recognize most everyone even if you don't work with them. There are enough people so you don't have to do things you're not qualified for like in the very early days of a startup. * Steady growth, but not crazy, venture fueled moonshots. * Selling something that earns enough money to grow the business in a fairly organic way. I worked in a place…

I’ve worked at 3-4 small companies (less than 30 employees) and I’ve never been happy. There is always 1 person that makes my life miserable (constantly rejecting my ideas, ego is larger than their experience level, etc). I’ve worked at a 100, and two 1,000 engineer count companies and I never met any “coding princesses” in those roles.

I think part of the problem that triggers this is in small companies, one engineer codes, a significant portion of the code base and has a strict vision in their mind about how that code should be structured. When new employees come in to bring new ideas, they become personally offended that their baby is no longer their baby. At large companies no one feels like they own 100% of the code, and each change is very collaborative.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#249

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

"wrong companies" is it. Perhaps it is love software engineering AND coding but hate big software companies?

Also with "some software companies can turn even the simplest..." You may have forgotten to add "and add metrics to these rituals as performance goals"!

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#250
I agree completely and have felt this way for years. And this is despite me getting a job at a "good job" (good benefits, generally respectful etc, cool language and tech).

I went fully remote way before COVID. I've figured out how to cut my work with sawdust to get paid at work, and nowadays I'd say I spend more hours per workday on personal projects (programming and otherwise) than company work.

So basically, I recommend making your job a low priority and focus on finding a remote company who will be happy with your output at that level of focus. Then you can get paid to do what you want in a way.

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