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Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#501

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

What are these unicorn companies? I've worked at 7 companies (and interviewed at many more) and never seen anything close to this mythical "company that values programming and real productivity". I feel like they must be exceptionally rare.

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Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#503
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s bland, safe, and lifeless. The statement has no bite. The original statement will be read by men and some men will connect to it right away, because rather than envision some abstract person, they are made to immediately picture a man, and in that image they may recognize themselves, like looking at a mirror.

> The original statement will be read by men and some men will connect to it right away, because rather than envision some abstract person, they are made to immediately picture a man, and in that image they may recognize themselves, like looking at a mirror. Sorry, are you saying that the audience of the statement is on purpose only men? If so, how could you possibly support any claim that it's not misogynistic?

> Sorry, are you saying that the audience of the statement is on purpose only men?

Isn't it?

Wasn't Socrates replying to a question from a young man when he (allegedly) said that?

Since the origin of that quote is directly in response to a man, isn't it aimed at ... men?

[1] https://www.quora.com/Did-Socrates-really-say-if-you-get-a-b...

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> agile has killed the happiness...meetings...rituals...meta-work...not actual productivity. All of that isn't actual agile. It's Fauxgile and has nothing to do with what agile is about, which is about removing impediments to productivity, removing meetings (why were there standups? Because they shouldn't exist in the first place, and if you absolutely positively can't avoid them then at least make them as short as p…

Can't upvote this enough times. Time and time again you see this: people say "I hate agile because of X, Y and Z" where X, Y, and Z - at best - are orthogonal to the idea of Agile, and at worst (and perhaps even "ordinarily") are complete anathema to the spirit of Agile. Sorry, but anybody who thinks Agile is about velocity, story points, planning poker, standups, retrospectives, backlog grooming, etc. has been sold…

> Sorry, but anybody who thinks Agile is about velocity, story points, planning poker, standups, retrospectives, backlog grooming, etc. has been sold a bill of goods. Now that's not to say that those things don't have (some) value.

Spot on. You and parent have hit the two points that matter:

1. Agile is about removing impediments to productivity

2. velocity, story points, planning poker, standups, retrospectives, backlog grooming, etc are all, in some way, impediments to productivity (even if they do have some value).

I think the real reason you cannot have real agile is because businesses don't run in a way that is compatible with agile, so over time all processes within a business will evolve to match how the business itself functions.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read the original manifesto and principles, and quite frankly I'm not that impressed with them either. Some of the principles are actively harmful, like welcoming changing requirements late in the process.

Yep. "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools" OK, not terrible, but why not "interactions and tools over individuals and processes"? De-emphasize individual's egos and ritualized processes, focus on the things that get work done and communication between entities. "Working software over comprehensive documentation" Tends to make very frustrating-to-use software, because it's never fully working and has…

> "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation"

TLDR: Businesses purchase development effort in terms of contracts, and the contract is almost always "You will deliver $X for $Y amount, in $Z months or less". Agile is the opposite of that as far as business is concerned - "We will pay $A per hour until our money runs out or we are satisfied with what we get".

I've never understood this one, to be honest. Business runs on contracts; in any interaction with the outside world (suppliers, customers, employees, etc) the businesses contract is what makes or breaks that interaction.

In 999 out of 1000 cases, no contract == no interaction.

I mean, look at it this way: when you ask a crew to paint your house, you specify the colors upfront. You don't iterate with them on after every room, or every wall.

You certainly will not engage with any crew who wants to paint your house using the guidance of the Agile Manifesto, because then you'd have little to no upfront indication of the cost, you might have a house not gully painted (because you're paying per hour for their time, and once your money runs out they stop working).

Agile works great for teams internal to the business - the money never runs out unless the business shuts down. But for external developers, the business cannot engage without a contract, and that contract will be "You will deliver $X for $Y in $Z months", and not "We will pay you $A hourly until we are satisfied with the result".

The practical result is that the agile way and the business way are entirely opposites of each other. This explains why dev teams within companies constantly complain "This isn't Agile!" ... because business is trying to enforce some sort of "Deliver $X within $Z months" and the agile team is working with "We'll collaborate until the stakeholders are satisfied"

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Read the Manifesto again. I did, and here's the direct quotes: > Deliver working software frequently, from a couple of weeks to a couple of months, with a preference to the shorter timescale. As I said, the cycle length is shortened, yet... > Continuous attention to technical excellence and good design enhances agility. ...design is not removed from the process, but kept as a cornerstone. > Simplicity--the art of m…

Now read it again as the entire document that it is. While I can see where you are coming from, your theme doesn't carry into the points you conveniently left out. Once you put it together, you'll realize that the message is: 1. Deliver software. You won't have a manager hounding you to do so. 2. Do good work. You won't have a manager questioning what you've done. 3. Don't spend more time programming than you need to…

Being a developer without a good Engineering Manager is a futile exercise in my experience. Software developers deliver quality work and solve problems efficiently as a matter course. If not, they should be let go to work someplace else, potentially outside the software trade. Saying those skills are exclusive to followers of the agile manifesto is silly. Find a good manager that brings you opportunities and respects your expertise. If your manager hasn't put you in a place to be the rock star in the last year or so you need to move on or accept you aren't "all that".

My opinion is based on being a software engineer (junior through principal) at small, medium, and fortune 100 companies. I also have years of experience as an engineering manager.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#508
Hate the industry but love the craft, is the advice I can give you.

Programing is first and foremost a craft which just so happens to employ a lot of people and tends to pay pretty well. There is nothing wrong with keeping programing as a hobby and finding a different career. I personally know a couple of talented programmers that work in other industries.

This kind of mentality is way common in some other industries. Woodworking and apparel jump quick to mind. I bet the number of talented woodworkers that don’t have a woodworking career is pretty high.

If you don’t want to change careers, then there are some companies that value the craft more then others. In my experience the smaller the startup the more they value the craft (which unfortunately is negatively correlated with pay). Perhaps you can love your job more if you worked at a different company.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#509

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

1000x times this. It's a weird thing our profession. There's a horrible but apt (misogynistic even) saying. Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that…

It's actually quite funny because "agile" basically means (in English) "quick to react", which should imply not much process at all (and when properly implemented, usually is).
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