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Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#301

Post by ok_dad »

wpietri wrote: post #260
ok_dad wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am here to say that both "too much" and "too little" process are shitty. I have been at companies with too much process (medical devices) and companies with WAY to little process, and both places are an absolute nightmare. What you want is a process that ensures features are spec'ed out properly, testing is performed, deployment is smooth, and etc., with a lot less or zero of the "put your hours into the Jira ticke…

Tastes differ, as do circumstances, but the last place I want to work is one where things are spec'd out "properly". For me one of the great sources of joy in making software is jointly discovering needs by exploring the problem space. I've done whole companies with nothing more than index cards, napkin-quality sketches, and very close team relationships. I love it.

That's fine until half or more of the team moves on, then you have a spaghetti mess that newcomers have to theorize about and clean up.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#303

Post by davidw »

jonas21 wrote: post #290
itake wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve worked at 3-4 small companies (less than 30 employees) and I’ve never been happy. There is always 1 person that makes my life miserable (constantly rejecting my ideas, ego is larger than their experience level, etc). I’ve worked at a 100, and two 1,000 engineer count companies and I never met any “coding princesses” in those roles. I think part of the problem that triggers this is in small companies, one enginee…

> At large companies no one feels like they own 100% of the code, and each change is very collaborative. That's how you end up with endless process, design by committee, and having a dozen meetings with all "stakeholders" before actually writing any code. I'd much rather work at a place where individuals or small groups have a strong vision on the code and product and are capable on executing independently on that. I…

I read something about how a lot of 'super group' bands kind of don't do anything truly great because of this type of dynamic. They all know they're good, they know the others are good, and they all have a bit of an ego and don't want to stomp on the others, so they all tend to "go along with it" without getting too pushy. That leads to good, but not great music.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#304

Post by feoren »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #158
schrodinger wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a slight implication because it only covers men that women are the source of unhappiness (e.g. the nagging wife trope), but I agree it's trivial and likely unintentional. Agree with sibling, just as applicable as "happy married people are happy partners, unhappily married people are great philosophers".

[flagged]

You're clearly passionate about something here, but it's not totally clear what it is or why. It might be interesting to read what you have to say, but you need to chill, organize your thoughts, and stop calling other posters idiots for disagreeing with you. Right now it feels like we're catching half of an angry shower argument against someone who's not here.

I can tell, because I've made posts like this before, and I always regretted it later. Have your angry argument in a journal or text file (Lately I've really liked Markdown with source control). Then revisit it later, and add in the side you're arguing against. Then revise it so that you're actually making a clear point, and remove all the personal insults. Then post it here, because I want to read it. But until then, I have no idea WTF you're on about or why you're so defensive of a very-long-dead philosopher.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#306

Post by feoren »

orblivion wrote: post #109

The strangest thing is that I love refactoring, and I sort of assume that it's another one of those things that programmers love to do, but managers keep pushing us to limit our time and move on to things that are visible to customers. But now I'm wondering if that's not the case. Or maybe it's just the sort of programmer who loves abstractions and is cast as a "perfectionist". I'm currently getting my footing now as…

> I'm currently getting my footing now as a contractor. If this is actually something that most programmers don't like to do, is there an angle for me to pitch myself as "The guy who will clean up your code base"?

Absolutely not. Do not go there. If you love the process of software engineering, the art of refactoring, building good abstractions, etc., then you need to have your own code; your own garden to tend. You cannot just parachute into an ailing codebase to "clean it up"; you need to build the mental theory behind it first, which means deeply understanding the problem being solved. If you are able to do this, you may make lots of changes which genuinely improve the code, and you will be hated for it. Because when you leave, nobody is going to understand why you made all those changes, and they're going to think you're some enterprisey architecture astronaut who just made everything more complicated, even if they're wrong. You've just disconnected their mental models from the codebase and then jumped ship, leaving them with something they can no longer maintain. Now instead of bad mental models matching bad code, then have bad mental models completely divorced of this new "good" code. They're worse off. You cannot just "clean up" a codebase -- keeping a clean codebase takes a long time, a lot of background knowledge, and a lot of care.

The best thing you could do would be to improve their own mental models, and guide them in improving their own codebases. But this is a completely different skillset, and I don't know how much money there is there. It requires them to accept your help, which is a big ask.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#307

Post by pydry »

kraig911 wrote: post #103
pydry wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that's another topic to me) All that stuff you hate isnt unique to software. It's just capitalism.

Before I was in this industry most other things aren't ritualistic in their delivery. In retail, in healthcare, in hospitality, in television - it was very much quality/event driven. A thing was done it can't continuously improved upon. Software (at least relative to me) is like working on a dish as a chef that is never complete. A patient that never is healed etc. It's because so much about ritualistic definition of…

I'm guessing in retail you weren't a walmart greeter.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#308

Post by now__what »

feoren wrote: post #304
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You're clearly passionate about something here, but it's not totally clear what it is or why. It might be interesting to read what you have to say, but you need to chill, organize your thoughts, and stop calling other posters idiots for disagreeing with you. Right now it feels like we're catching half of an angry shower argument against someone who's not here. I can tell, because I've made posts like this before, and…

Aptly stated. I would like to save this as a copypasta response to innumerable similar internet comments.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#309

Post by tjrDL6MjB2Zwwa »

kraig911 wrote: post #19
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #6

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

1000x times this. It's a weird thing our profession. There's a horrible but apt (misogynistic even) saying. Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that…

> Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers.

I'm not sure I understand what this means, can someone clarify for me?

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#310

Post by SAI_Peregrinus »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #242
mpweiher wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> agile has killed the happiness...meetings...rituals...meta-work...not actual productivity. All of that isn't actual agile. It's Fauxgile and has nothing to do with what agile is about, which is about removing impediments to productivity, removing meetings (why were there standups? Because they shouldn't exist in the first place, and if you absolutely positively can't avoid them then at least make them as short as p…

I've read the original manifesto and principles, and quite frankly I'm not that impressed with them either. Some of the principles are actively harmful, like welcoming changing requirements late in the process.

Yep.

"Individuals and interactions over processes and tools"

OK, not terrible, but why not "interactions and tools over individuals and processes"? De-emphasize individual's egos and ritualized processes, focus on the things that get work done and communication between entities.

"Working software over comprehensive documentation"

Tends to make very frustrating-to-use software, because it's never fully working and has minimal documentation.

"Customer collaboration over contract negotiation"

Fine. You'll still need a contract, but it's definitely important have a collaborative rather than adversarial relationship with customers.

"Responding to change over following a plan"

Tends to make sense when gathering requirements, turns into a horrible idea later on in a project. Also fails utterly when working with something like a factory (making a hardware product with embedded software). If your entire view of software is web apps, this one seems like a good idea. If you're making something with a manufacturing deadline, it's a recipe for disaster.

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