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The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

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Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#271

Post by ErikCorry »

Reason077 wrote: post #202
ErikCorry wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strangely there already is one between Scotland and Wales and two more are proposed (see the article). I suspect NIMBYism is a big part of the explanation. Airborne AC links are efficient but ugly. Underwater AC links are tolerated by Nimbies, but inefficient. So you end up with underwater HVDC links.

HVDC links are more efficient than terrestrial AC transmission lines over long distances.

Also a lot more expensive. The UK is not big enough for it to make technical sense.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#274

Post by hgomersall »

entropicgravity wrote: post #149
redleader55 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a nationwide power grid is very complex. Some energy sources can be started and stopped instantly, but are limited - water. Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. Others are predictable, but take a long time to start and stop - gas, coal(several hours), nuclear(1 day to start, fast to stop, but very expensive). A balanced grid will need all of them, will need them in quantities which can cover faul…

HVDC is now a thing. Collecting solar in Northern Austrialia and sending it to Singapore over a 3800km long transmission line. Under construction now.

The current problem, as I understand it, is the capacity to build HVDC isn't high enough to meet global demand.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#275

Post by smcl »

midasuni wrote: post #179
smcl wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure TransPennine Express and Avanti West Coast passengers would love that but it's not quite true (yet?)

Despite what corbynites tell you the problem has never been privatisation or the franchise system - certainly not the TOCs. Indeed the system has managed to take Marylebone and the Chiltern main line from near closure under government control to providing massive investment and high quality thanks to long term franchises. The competition has lowered prices dramatically for those that care (in 1990 a 3 hour return Man…

I don't have a strong opinion personally about the franchise system as I don't use any UK rail. My gut tells me they're not adding any value and they might as well be nationalised but someone whose opinion I trust (rail engineer and YouTuber Gareth Dennis[0]) has said that ditching them and nationalising it entirely wouldn't really fix what people think it would. However it has to be said that TPE and AWC have stood out as particularly dismal services - AWC were found to be fucking around with their already disappointing stats around cancelled services, for example. Hence my comment about users of those services - I would completely understand if they would want an overhaul if not outright nationalisation.

[0] - interestingly his "RailNatter" this Wednesday was titled "How to fix Britain's broken railways". I haven't watched it yet, but it will certainly feature some good insight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmKhVjw1xDA

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#276

Post by cbmuser »

Yes, that’s one of the main problems with volatile generation. You often don’t get the power when you need it and vice versa.

This isn’t news though and the reason why Germany is returning to goal despite of having installed 130 GW of wind and solar generation capacity.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#277

Post by avianlyric »

Vvector wrote: post #194
avianlyric wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article leaves an impression that curtailment is a problem that is costing us money. That’s because curtailment does cost us money. Someone’s paying those wind operators to turn off the farms. We literally pay money to wind farms to explicitly make them produce nothing . How do you reconcile these two statements? > High electricity prices are a problem to be solved. > I'm explicitly calling for more curtailment…

> Curtailment cost money, you still need pay the wind operators to the energy you told them not to produce Why? What are the real costs? Isn't it just a simple disconnect switch? Why do the wind operators get paid for not delivering power? Is it a contractual issue?

Because the wind providers have already sold that electricity in an energy auction. So the grid has to pay them for electricity, even if they can’t use it.

One of the big points in the article is that there’s a single energy market in the UK that doesn't consider location. So it’s possible for wind providers to sell energy from locations where it can’t be used. An obvious fix is to introduce multiple energy markets for different locations, so the price of electricity drops in areas where there’s excessive production, and not enough transfer capability.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#278

Post by mrjin »

It's not surprising at all. Given the intermittent nature of wind/solar power, it would be a huge waste of transmission network capacity built to the maximum producing capacity.

So, unless a storage facility is available, you will continue to see lots of wind/solar power get discarded as it's the most economical way: it's much more expensive to shut down or reduce output of other type of power generation such as gas or coal plants.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#279

Post by avianlyric »

alvah wrote: post #260
avianlyric wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curtailment is never a bad investment. If anything it’s fantastic for wind investors. Someone is paying you twice for not using your assets. You get all the revenue, and have zero wear and tear on your equipment. In an extreme scenario you could even be paid for not turning on non-functional equipment. What a fantastic deal.

Is it fantastic for energy consumers? Somebody has to pay for it.

What’s energy consumers got to do with it? As a (theoretical) investor in energy I don’t give two shits what the cost to the consumer is gonna be, as long as I get paid. Hence curtailment is always a great investment (for me).

Obviously it’s a shitty deal for consumers. But they’re not investors.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#280

Post by adrianN »

hgomersall wrote: post #274
entropicgravity wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HVDC is now a thing. Collecting solar in Northern Austrialia and sending it to Singapore over a 3800km long transmission line. Under construction now.

The current problem, as I understand it, is the capacity to build HVDC isn't high enough to meet global demand.

That is true for almost every technology related to energy. We can't satisfy global demand for solar panels or wind turbines or batteries or other forms of storage either. We also can't satisfy demand for heat pumps or building insulation.
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