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The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

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Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#161

Post by TylerE »

timerol wrote: post #145
TylerE wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the UK not a unified grid? Most of the US is. A kwh is a kwh.

Even in the parts of the US that are unified grids, a kWh is not a kWh. Where you live determines how expensive your electricity is. Compare Cambridge, MA https://electricityrates.com/compare/electricity/02139/ with Philadelphia, PA https://electricityrates.com/compare/electricity/19101/ . About twice as expensive in MA.

GP was (I think) talking about what the grid pays the plants, not what consumers pay the grid.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#162

Post by avianlyric »

consumer451 wrote: post #143
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article leaves an impression that curtailment is a problem that is costing us money. See most other comments here as evidence of that. I'm explicitly calling for more curtailment, because it isn't a problem and doesn't need to be solved. Burning fossil fuels is a problem to be solved. High electricity prices are a problem to be solved. Both of those problems can be solved by building more wind power , which almos…

> To repeat, curtailment is not a problem and does not need to be solved. Agree 95%. The only valid question involving curtailment is how much must occur at each individual turbine or farm to make it a bad investment.

Curtailment is never a bad investment. If anything it’s fantastic for wind investors. Someone is paying you twice for not using your assets.

You get all the revenue, and have zero wear and tear on your equipment. In an extreme scenario you could even be paid for not turning on non-functional equipment. What a fantastic deal.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#163

Post by Scoundreller »

fmajid wrote: post #157
entropicgravity wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HVDC is now a thing. Collecting solar in Northern Austrialia and sending it to Singapore over a 3800km long transmission line. Under construction now.

There's this incredible project to build a 10GW solar farm in Morocco (1/3 of UK peak consumption) and bring the power to the UK via HVDC cable. Amazingly they estimate only 10% losses despite being over 3800km long: https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/ Surely HVDC links between Scotland and England could be built? And then there are pumped hydropower storage project like this one with a proposed storage capac…

The dumb thing is that electricity transmission and distribution are usually fixed. This already doesn't make sense because it's peak demand that drives the capex. Opex is peanuts.

But the retail buyer doesn't usually see the negative/low electricity prices of high-supply+low-demand time periods for their "inefficient" uses that should still be economic.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#164

Post by Symbiote »

fencepost wrote: post #83

I think one of the most important elements is buried - electricity pricing is uniform across the entire UK. That seems nuts to me, and incentivizes building in locations that are less useful - it's likely cheaper to build in Scotland, higher production from more wind, you get paid more (for expected yield plus curtailment apparently), and you have less wear on the equipment when you adjust to lower output.

At least this shows different prices in different regions, but I'm not sure why. The article contradicts it.

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/r505_deemed_ra...

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#165

Post by avianlyric »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #64
ErikVandeWater wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd rather waste wind than waste money. How is paying wind farms hundreds of millions of pounds to turn off wind generation not wasting money?

Because, overall the wind power is the cheapest energy source available, and has been for a decade (recently overtaken by solar in some markets). Something that is cheap can have some percent wasted and still be cheaper overall than more expensive options. Focussing only on the waste without that bigger context is at best a false economy, at worst fossil fuel promoting propaganda.

What good is cheap if you can’t use it?

Why would I want to pay for cheap wind energy I can’t use, and also pay for gas energy that I can use? Unless the cost of the wind is £0, paying for wind in addition to gas is just a waste of money.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#166

Post by midasuni »

Reason077 wrote: post #133
radiowave wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting complicating factor here is that much of the UK's installed base of CCTG stations were built during the 90s with the intention of replacing many of the smaller coal-fired stations, which would typically be doing 2-shift operations (i.e., day and evening). Now, those CCGT stations are increasingly used to counterbalance renewables, and (as you point out) are now running on much shorter cycles than they…

It won't be long (perhaps in the next 2-3 years) before the UK grid will be able to operate for periods without any CCGTs running at all. We've already come quite close this winter, with record low CCGT output and record high wind turbine production. Wind turbine output, although variable, is also fairly predictable: so good modelling and scheduling should ensure that when CCGTs do operate, they can run as efficientl…

Only if the interconnects are there. Scotland can operate without gas for periods now, but it can’t get enough power where it’s needed.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#167

Post by Scoundreller »

Reason077 wrote: post #154
moffkalast wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it can, just short the generator coils and you have a free brake. The turbine should then still have resistance and shouldn't overspeed. Or just idk, use it to pump some water in a loop or discharge through some resistors. Getting rid of power isn't that hard if you want to do it. Simplest solution would I suppose be to just have an outside radiator that brings the steam to cooling tower levels of manageabi…

> "just short the generator coils and you have a free brake" You'll soon end up with a burning/melted generator. > "pump some water in a loop" OK, but you're going to need huge pumps (1000+ MW!). Expensive. > "or discharge through some resistors" Again, you'll need extremely large resistors, and a way to dissipate an awful lot of heat. We're talking about a huge amount of energy here!

sadly, my searches for "gigawatt resistor" and "gigawatt electric load" have been fruitless.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#168

Post by midasuni »

gehsty wrote: post #138
redleader55 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a nationwide power grid is very complex. Some energy sources can be started and stopped instantly, but are limited - water. Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. Others are predictable, but take a long time to start and stop - gas, coal(several hours), nuclear(1 day to start, fast to stop, but very expensive). A balanced grid will need all of them, will need them in quantities which can cover faul…

You can transmit a lot of power long distances with HVDC systems. 2GW systems are in development (TenneT 2GW platform & 525kV DC cables) & HVDC interconnectors can be several hindered km long…

But it’s expensive and takes a long time. The U.K. isn’t building enough quickly enough to take benefit of production in the north.

Maybe if variable prices encourages energy intensive demand to shift to Scotland that will help, but that’s not quick either.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#169

Post by Symbiote »

sh1mmer wrote: post #75
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #45

California is facing a similar issue dealing with its solar duck curve[1], where prices essentially go negative during periods of peak solar generation. As far as I know residential PG&E customers can't buy energy in spot market prices, or else there could be some innovative arbitrage opportunities, like only running bitcoin miners when power is cheap. 1. https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/confronting-duck-curve-..…

If only there were some actually useful use of excessive energy that weren’t mining bitcoin.

One example is producing hydrogen from water with excess power. It can then be added to the natural gas network, or used by trucks or trains, or stored for a power plant.

Orkney is trialling this.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#170

Post by moffkalast »

Reason077 wrote: post #154
moffkalast wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it can, just short the generator coils and you have a free brake. The turbine should then still have resistance and shouldn't overspeed. Or just idk, use it to pump some water in a loop or discharge through some resistors. Getting rid of power isn't that hard if you want to do it. Simplest solution would I suppose be to just have an outside radiator that brings the steam to cooling tower levels of manageabi…

> "just short the generator coils and you have a free brake" You'll soon end up with a burning/melted generator. > "pump some water in a loop" OK, but you're going to need huge pumps (1000+ MW!). Expensive. > "or discharge through some resistors" Again, you'll need extremely large resistors, and a way to dissipate an awful lot of heat. We're talking about a huge amount of energy here!

Pump water in a loop through a radiator to cool the braking generators and the resistor bank :P

Could try also melting some salt on the side.

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