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The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

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Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#131

Post by moffkalast »

PaulHoule wrote: post #100
redleader55 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a nationwide power grid is very complex. Some energy sources can be started and stopped instantly, but are limited - water. Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. Others are predictable, but take a long time to start and stop - gas, coal(several hours), nuclear(1 day to start, fast to stop, but very expensive). A balanced grid will need all of them, will need them in quantities which can cover faul…

Nuclear power plants can vary their output faster than most people think, see https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12... ... most of the modern light water nuclear reactors are capable (by design) to operate in a load following mode, i.e. to change their power level once or twice per day in the range of 100% to 50% (or even lower) of the rated power, with a ramp rate of up to 5% (or even more) of…

Ramping it up is likely the problem, since all plants can reduce power on a dime by just varying the generator coil current I think.

You could just keep it spinning nonstop without a load I suppose, but for anything but nuclear it's not gonna be economical.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#132

Post by Raydovsky »

oliwary wrote: post #121

Here is what I do not understand about these kinds of dynamics: Are they not the perfect way to encourage the creation of energy storage companies and technologies? It seems like there is a massive opportunity to purchase energy when it is cheap or even negatively priced, figure out some way of storing it, and then sell it back once the price is higher. Over time, this could stabilize the grid and encourage developme…

Because storage is hard and expensive.

Generating energy is easy (with renewables).

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#133

Post by Reason077 »

radiowave wrote: post #123
tialaramex wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but take a long time to start and stop - gas Despite the insistence that Closed Cycle Gas Turbines can't react quickly, because they're by far the largest component that we could start and stop the UK does in fact very quickly increase and decrease output from the CCGTs. For example this morning 2.79GW at 0600 to 3.89 at 0700. There are much faster options, batteries, import, even the pumped storage is seconds inst…

An interesting complicating factor here is that much of the UK's installed base of CCTG stations were built during the 90s with the intention of replacing many of the smaller coal-fired stations, which would typically be doing 2-shift operations (i.e., day and evening). Now, those CCGT stations are increasingly used to counterbalance renewables, and (as you point out) are now running on much shorter cycles than they…

It won't be long (perhaps in the next 2-3 years) before the UK grid will be able to operate for periods without any CCGTs running at all. We've already come quite close this winter, with record low CCGT output and record high wind turbine production.

Wind turbine output, although variable, is also fairly predictable: so good modelling and scheduling should ensure that when CCGTs do operate, they can run as efficiently as possible and not be spinning up and down too frequently.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#134

Post by abdullahkhalids »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #129
redleader55 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a nationwide power grid is very complex. Some energy sources can be started and stopped instantly, but are limited - water. Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. Others are predictable, but take a long time to start and stop - gas, coal(several hours), nuclear(1 day to start, fast to stop, but very expensive). A balanced grid will need all of them, will need them in quantities which can cover faul…

> Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. I think it depends on how you define unpredictable. Wind power forecasting[1] is used pretty extensively as I understand it by all major windfarms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_forecasting#Uncerta... [2] https://www.cerc.co.uk/forecasting/wind-energy.html [3] https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/electricity/national-e...

I believe GP meant by predictability "power is available for generation whenever we want it".

What you are saying is that its possible to map out in the future when power is available for generation.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#135

Post by Atheros »

Dma54rhs wrote: post #99
vardump wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to figure out how to reduce long distance power transfer. Imagine a global power distribution network, the entire world could be 100% solar & wind. Perhaps one day...

Not going to happen for geopolitical reasons ever, unless we have a one king for the whole planet.

Why couldn't countries just keep dirty coal generators and coal delivery infrastructure mothballed such that if power delivery from the other country is cut, just spin up the coal plants for a while until it gets sorted out. The cost of all of that may be less than the cost savings of importing electricity from a far-away country.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#136

Post by ZeroGravitas »

stdbrouw wrote: post #127
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says we pay three times, curtail wind and then burn gas. Which is bad. But all the solutions are aimed at reducing the curtailment of wind. Rather than reducing the gas burnt. If the money saved by building more wind (or solar) and not having to burn gas saves more money then who cares if more wind is "wasted"? It would be nice to use every last drop, but I dont want to actually spend money to achieve tha…

Again, that's not what the article is about. If more wind power gets built in Scotland to serve needs in England, then increasingly more of that output will have to be curtailed because we simply can't move the energy to where it needs to be, to the point where the only thing adding more wind farms would do is to provide a tad bit more energy when there's hardly any wind to distribute. In all other scenarios, having…

The article leaves an impression that curtailment is a problem that is costing us money. See most other comments here as evidence of that.

I'm explicitly calling for more curtailment, because it isn't a problem and doesn't need to be solved.

Burning fossil fuels is a problem to be solved. High electricity prices are a problem to be solved.

Both of those problems can be solved by building more wind power, which almost inevitably increases the amount of wind curtailed.

To repeat, curtailment is not a problem and does not need to be solved. It's a normal part of running a renewable grid. Any low cost renewable plan will have some predicted degree of curtailment, because it's the cheapest way to meet our energy needs.

See:

"Reframing Curtailment: Why Too Much of a Good Thing Is Still a Good Thing"

https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2022/reframing-curtailment...

> Video Explains How Having More than Enough Renewable Energy Capacity Can Make the Grid More Flexible

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#137

Post by Reason077 »

moffkalast wrote: post #131
PaulHoule wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power plants can vary their output faster than most people think, see https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12... ... most of the modern light water nuclear reactors are capable (by design) to operate in a load following mode, i.e. to change their power level once or twice per day in the range of 100% to 50% (or even lower) of the rated power, with a ramp rate of up to 5% (or even more) of…

Ramping it up is likely the problem, since all plants can reduce power on a dime by just varying the generator coil current I think. You could just keep it spinning nonstop without a load I suppose, but for anything but nuclear it's not gonna be economical.

A nuclear power plant can't just "keep spinning without a load" - all that energy has to go somewhere! If a nuclear plant is disconnected from the grid (tripped), the nuclear reaction must be stopped (eg: by inserting control rods into the core).

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#138

Post by gehsty »

redleader55 wrote: post #39
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #4

Curtailment, like negative prices, seems like something that it is hard for people to have constructive conversations about. Probably the cheapest and best option is to build more wind and not care too much if it increases curtailment. Yes, all the things mentioned should be looked into and done when it makes financial sense but "wasting wind" is much less a thing to worry about than "burning gas", and I'd rather was…

Balancing a nationwide power grid is very complex. Some energy sources can be started and stopped instantly, but are limited - water. Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. Others are predictable, but take a long time to start and stop - gas, coal(several hours), nuclear(1 day to start, fast to stop, but very expensive). A balanced grid will need all of them, will need them in quantities which can cover faul…

You can transmit a lot of power long distances with HVDC systems. 2GW systems are in development (TenneT 2GW platform & 525kV DC cables) & HVDC interconnectors can be several hindered km long…

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#139

Post by Atheros »

vardump wrote: post #35
davedx wrote: post #23

I know quite a bit about most of the things discussed in the article from having worked for a renewables company and yet I learned quite some new bits I didn’t know about, for example the intra-UK submarine HVDC connectors (and their eye watering cost). Not a very long article but packed with clearly written and valuable information. Great stuff

We need to figure out how to reduce long distance power transfer. Imagine a global power distribution network, the entire world could be 100% solar & wind. Perhaps one day...

Imagine someone invents low cost high temperature superconductors which enable fusion reactors, to much fanfare. Until everyone slowly realizes that we can use those same conductors to balance low cost electricity globally for less money.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#140

Post by jahewson »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #129
redleader55 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a nationwide power grid is very complex. Some energy sources can be started and stopped instantly, but are limited - water. Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. Others are predictable, but take a long time to start and stop - gas, coal(several hours), nuclear(1 day to start, fast to stop, but very expensive). A balanced grid will need all of them, will need them in quantities which can cover faul…

> Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. I think it depends on how you define unpredictable. Wind power forecasting[1] is used pretty extensively as I understand it by all major windfarms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_forecasting#Uncerta... [2] https://www.cerc.co.uk/forecasting/wind-energy.html [3] https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/electricity/national-e...

I think “intermittent” is what was meant.
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