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Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

theguardian.com

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Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#51

Post by lordnacho »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47
lordnacho wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think actually liquidating isn't so bad. Now and again nature strikes down a giant and a lot of other creatures benefit from it. It's actually a bit odd that when we invented corporations we didn't have some sort of catastrophe mechanism in there just to shake hands up now and again. I think society would find ways to become more resilient if we lived with possible corporate sudden death.

> liquidating isn't so bad You're guaranteeing either consolidation in an already oligopolistic sector, or a recession from the output drop caused by an inexperienced operator learning to scale to a major. > we didn't have some sort of catastrophe mechanism We do. They're fines and license revocations. Companies that can't afford their fines go bankrupt. Government gets cash; the stakeholders' clean up the mess. "Cor…

You're also guaranteeing that people will be able to try new things where the giant once stood.

The real challenge is how to regulate the death rate.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#52

Post by lazyasciiart »

lordnacho wrote: post #37
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the company would be dissolved and all of its resources taken and put towards fixing the problems it intentionally created, and the people that knew about this be held personally liable I get the second part. But what's the utility of the first over a fine? Are you suggesting nationalizing Exxon? Or liquidating it?

I think actually liquidating isn't so bad. Now and again nature strikes down a giant and a lot of other creatures benefit from it. It's actually a bit odd that when we invented corporations we didn't have some sort of catastrophe mechanism in there just to shake hands up now and again. I think society would find ways to become more resilient if we lived with possible corporate sudden death.

The corporate death penalty. It's reasonable that nobody came up with it at the invention of the corporation, but America should absolutely have implemented one along with Citizens United.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#53

Post by suprjami »

leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #45
suprjami wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowingly cause millions or billions of deaths and destroy the planet, or not make as much money short-term and pivot the industry to something else. Yeah, tough choice.

How many billions of lives have been saved by fossil fuels and technology though? From starvation, from extreme weather events, from exposure to heat and cold? Would we be here if not for modernization and fossil fuels? If we stopped in the 60s, would other nations have done the same? Or would they have advanced to dominance?

Burn down your house. Yeah, your house is gone, but look how warm you are today!

Fossil fuels are not the only form of energy. We could have put decades of technological effort into wind and solar and battery and waves and all the other options. We'd be so much further forward than we are today. Instead the industry just lobbied and lied.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#54

Post by acdha »

kingstoned wrote: post #13

It reminds me of tobacco industry. Check out this article: https://pandodaily.com/2015/06/30/tobacco-industry-will-kill...

It's an apt comparison because many of the science deniers started their careers with the tobacco industry. For example, this guy is on Fox News a lot — he started with tobacco but moved on to things like claiming banning DDT killed people (funded as part of the tobacco industry's opposition to public health agencies in Africa whose anti-smoking campaigns were cutting into sales), climate change denial, and COVID-19 misinformation and skepticism about vaccines:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Milloy

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#55

Post by LatteLazy »

whatever1 wrote: post #5

I don’t understand what was the expectation. For Big Oil to start campaigning against their own product? We have legislative bodies that we literally elect and pay to do this job. Let’s stop the hypocrisy and look ourselves in the mirror.

Thank you. I thought I was the only one disgusted by this.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#56

Post by UncleOxidant »

whatever1 wrote: post #5

I don’t understand what was the expectation. For Big Oil to start campaigning against their own product? We have legislative bodies that we literally elect and pay to do this job. Let’s stop the hypocrisy and look ourselves in the mirror.

There was a time in the late 70s early 80s when oil companies sought to diversify into solar and other areas. Exxon bought Zilog to diversify into semiconductors... it didn't last long. When Reagan came to power Carter's emphasis on moving towards alternative energy and away from oil came to an end. The oil companies were happy to play along and go back to being oil companies instead of energy companies that started out in oil.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#57

Post by adam_arthur »

lasfter wrote: post #21
whatever1 wrote: post #5

I don’t understand what was the expectation. For Big Oil to start campaigning against their own product? We have legislative bodies that we literally elect and pay to do this job. Let’s stop the hypocrisy and look ourselves in the mirror.

Just because it's in your best interest to fuck over the world doesn't mean it's morally justifiable. The fact is that the people profiting from Big Oil would have still been plenty rich enough if they did campaign against their own product, so their choice to withhold this information can only be attributed to plain greed. We don't expect murderers to turn themselves in, we pay police forces to find them. But it's n…

Oil and coal have lifted more out of poverty than possibly any other invention/discovery in the modern era.

The key is not to villainize fossil fuels, but to recognize their benefits and costs and decide collectively via policy what tradeoffs we’re willing to make.

Think about how privileged you are in life that you can even consider not depending on fossil fuels. Hysterical takes like yours come across completely naive and uninformed.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#58

Post by LatteLazy »

Oh great, we're at the "pretend we didn't know and blame the people who sold us the gun" stage of refusing to admit we don't actually care.

Let's all comment about how bad OTHER people are for letting us be so shitty to show how moral we are in theory while continuing inexcusable and intentional behaviour in practice.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#59

Post by lasfter »

sokoloff wrote: post #50
lasfter wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it's in your best interest to fuck over the world doesn't mean it's morally justifiable. The fact is that the people profiting from Big Oil would have still been plenty rich enough if they did campaign against their own product, so their choice to withhold this information can only be attributed to plain greed. We don't expect murderers to turn themselves in, we pay police forces to find them. But it's n…

Some of the people profiting from oil usage are you and me. We get (relatively) cheap transportation, cheap heating, cheap power, a huge variety of foods without regard to season, cheap vacations, etc, etc. IMO, it's less "all those other bad people are enjoying running fossil fuel companies" than it is "all of us people are enjoying the benefits of fossil fuel burning". (I daily an EV; I don't pretend that makes me…

Are you saying Exxon is justified because people get to use oil?

It's not about burning fossil fuels, it's about misinforming the public about the long-term dangers of your product. If I sell you a delicious candy while secretly knowing it will give you cancer in 10 years, I don't get to say "well you enjoyed the candy didn't you?" once I'm caught out.

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