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Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

theguardian.com

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Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#41

Post by agentultra »

The address Carl Sagan made in 1985 is well worth watching for those who remember those times and especially for those who weren't alive back then [0]

People knew about this before you were born and decided their best interests were more important and they acted in wilful disregard for your life and the lives of everyone on this planet. They weren't ignorant. No facts were hidden from them that they could be forgiven for being misinformed. They knew with certainty what the science was revealing and spent money to discredit the science, cut funding to their own researchers, bought politicians, funded PR campaigns, and continued building their fossil fuel empires.

Everything Carl Sagan said in that address has come to pass. It's wild to watch.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp-WiNXH6hI

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#42

Post by avgcorrection »

whatever1 wrote: post #5

I don’t understand what was the expectation. For Big Oil to start campaigning against their own product? We have legislative bodies that we literally elect and pay to do this job. Let’s stop the hypocrisy and look ourselves in the mirror.

Yes. Let’s look ourselves in the mirror and ask ourselves why such corporate behavior is even legal in the first place.

For-profit corporations—and really any kind of for-profit organization—should be made illegal. Through our legislative bodies.

It’s that or extinction.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#43

Post by avgcorrection »

Barrin92 wrote: post #29
TinyRick wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that Big Oil pays those politicians more.

that's not even remotely the issue. Money may buy you access but it doesn't magically buy you votes. People could easily kick every oil lobbyist out. The genuine reason is that citizens are not willing to internalize the costs of their pollution and change their habits. Cheap gas, big cars, big houses, cheap Big Macs, cheap plane tickets is what the people vote for. Big Oil just supplies the juice.

That sounds like what Nicolas Cage said in Lord of War.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#44

Post by LarryMullins »

kingstoned wrote: post #13

It reminds me of tobacco industry. Check out this article: https://pandodaily.com/2015/06/30/tobacco-industry-will-kill...

American propagandist and inventor of "PR", Edward Bernays, is infamous for convincing American women to smoke cigarettes. But privately, he wanted his own wife to quit.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#45

Post by leeroyjenkins11 »

suprjami wrote: post #22
whatever1 wrote: post #5

I don’t understand what was the expectation. For Big Oil to start campaigning against their own product? We have legislative bodies that we literally elect and pay to do this job. Let’s stop the hypocrisy and look ourselves in the mirror.

Knowingly cause millions or billions of deaths and destroy the planet, or not make as much money short-term and pivot the industry to something else. Yeah, tough choice.

How many billions of lives have been saved by fossil fuels and technology though? From starvation, from extreme weather events, from exposure to heat and cold?

Would we be here if not for modernization and fossil fuels? If we stopped in the 60s, would other nations have done the same? Or would they have advanced to dominance?

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#46

Post by melling »

agentultra wrote: post #41

The address Carl Sagan made in 1985 is well worth watching for those who remember those times and especially for those who weren't alive back then [0] People knew about this before you were born and decided their best interests were more important and they acted in wilful disregard for your life and the lives of everyone on this planet. They weren't ignorant. No facts were hidden from them that they could be forgiven…

And Sagan knew coal usage would be a big problem, and yet it’s still a huge problem almost 40 years later.

People wouldn’t know if coal power plants disappeared tomorrow, replaced by any other form of electricity

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#47

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lordnacho wrote: post #37
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the company would be dissolved and all of its resources taken and put towards fixing the problems it intentionally created, and the people that knew about this be held personally liable I get the second part. But what's the utility of the first over a fine? Are you suggesting nationalizing Exxon? Or liquidating it?

I think actually liquidating isn't so bad. Now and again nature strikes down a giant and a lot of other creatures benefit from it. It's actually a bit odd that when we invented corporations we didn't have some sort of catastrophe mechanism in there just to shake hands up now and again. I think society would find ways to become more resilient if we lived with possible corporate sudden death.

> liquidating isn't so bad

You're guaranteeing either consolidation in an already oligopolistic sector, or a recession from the output drop caused by an inexperienced operator learning to scale to a major.

> we didn't have some sort of catastrophe mechanism

We do. They're fines and license revocations. Companies that can't afford their fines go bankrupt. Government gets cash; the stakeholders' clean up the mess. "Corporate death penalty" and related talking points are almost all about dismissing talk about bigger fines.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#48

Post by ARandomerDude »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4
thatguy0900 wrote: post #3

In any just world the company would be dissolved and all of its resources taken and put towards fixing the problems it intentionally created, and the people that knew about this be held personally liable.

> the company would be dissolved and all of its resources taken and put towards fixing the problems it intentionally created, and the people that knew about this be held personally liable I get the second part. But what's the utility of the first over a fine? Are you suggesting nationalizing Exxon? Or liquidating it?

Without oil things would be pretty bad around here, to say the least.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#50

Post by sokoloff »

lasfter wrote: post #21
whatever1 wrote: post #5

I don’t understand what was the expectation. For Big Oil to start campaigning against their own product? We have legislative bodies that we literally elect and pay to do this job. Let’s stop the hypocrisy and look ourselves in the mirror.

Just because it's in your best interest to fuck over the world doesn't mean it's morally justifiable. The fact is that the people profiting from Big Oil would have still been plenty rich enough if they did campaign against their own product, so their choice to withhold this information can only be attributed to plain greed. We don't expect murderers to turn themselves in, we pay police forces to find them. But it's n…

Some of the people profiting from oil usage are you and me. We get (relatively) cheap transportation, cheap heating, cheap power, a huge variety of foods without regard to season, cheap vacations, etc, etc.

IMO, it's less "all those other bad people are enjoying running fossil fuel companies" than it is "all of us people are enjoying the benefits of fossil fuel burning".

(I daily an EV; I don't pretend that makes me any better than the average American, which is to say I am substantially worse than the average Earthling.)

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