Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 294 posts

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#281

Post by wazoox »

totalZero wrote: post #275
wazoox wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mutual respect That's the point. This student obviously doesn't have any respect for the country and the culture he's currently living in. He has a point to make and a war to wage. And that's not xenophobic to say that; I've hosted an Afghan refugees for months. I didn't try to feed him pork, and he didn't try to stab me for eating ham or not praying for Allah. There are decent people everywhere. You can be an oppr…

Firstly the article says the student is a girl. How much do you really know about her and her attitude if you didn't read that part of the article? Regarding your experience with a refugee...doing good isn't a cache of poker chips. You can't justify judging a person today based on using something good that you said/did yesterday. I don't think it's right to say something along the lines of "we might as well send this…

I strongly disagree. The professor said that she was about to show the picture and people who didn't like it had the option to not look at it. It was a planned, extremely deliberate aggression from the student to make a point about her intolerant, hateful interpretation of Islam. By going in a US University she knew that she would be exposed to ideas that will challenge her backwards beliefs.

I think intolerant religion must not be tolerated in an open society. I think that a society has absolutely no obligation to try to be amenable and welcoming to any ideology. When I travel in a Muslim country, I don't go around at noon during Ramadan eating ham sandwiches and drinking beer. That student is doing exactly that. She's literally spitting in the face of the country that hosts and educates her.

Yes, the professor may have tried to teach her students about the complexity of the world. That's the very definition of her job, after all!

The next step for a person like this student ends in a Samuel Paty or Charlie Hebdo. My advice is to deport her back to her miserable, war-torn, fascistic backward country she shouldn't have left.

Tolerance is great, but must be with at least a modicum of reciprocation. As Paul Claudel said "Tolerance? There are houses for that."

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#282

Post by ModernMech »

yucky wrote: post #280
ModernMech wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) You are the only one here arguing about race-based policies. Neither I nor the passage you quoted by Ibram X. Kendi make such an argument (if Kendi makes the argument that racial discrimination is necessary, I don't agree with that. But the passage you quoted isn't making that point). I don't know if he makes that argument elsewhere, but as far as this discussion goes, that's something you're arguing against, not…

> You are the only one here arguing about race-based policies. Neither I nor the passage you quoted by Ibram X. Kendi make such an argument (if Kendi makes the argument that racial discrimination is necessary, I don't agree with that. But the passage you quoted isn't making that point) He does, and it forms the foundation of the book " How to be an Antiracist " which is where it is made, and the book is one of the mo…

> He does, and it forms the foundation of the book "How to be an Antiracist"

Did you read the book? The foundation of the book is right in the title: to fight racism it's not enough to be not racist, one must be antiracist. The book is about defining this term and explaining that premise. The book makes a lot of points, some good, some strained, but I don't believe "racial discrimination is necessary" is one of them. I'd challenge you to find some quotes that support your position. And no, the one you already quoted does not fit the bill.

> And by backing Kendi, you are backing a racist.

Point in fact I was defending a specific point you raised, not "backing" anybody.

> Why would we ever want the government to participate in racial discrimination though?

I wouldn't and you wouldn't, but some people have wanted this in a misguided way.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#283

Post by yucky »

ModernMech wrote: post #282
yucky wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are the only one here arguing about race-based policies. Neither I nor the passage you quoted by Ibram X. Kendi make such an argument (if Kendi makes the argument that racial discrimination is necessary, I don't agree with that. But the passage you quoted isn't making that point) He does, and it forms the foundation of the book " How to be an Antiracist " which is where it is made, and the book is one of the mo…

> He does, and it forms the foundation of the book "How to be an Antiracist" Did you read the book? The foundation of the book is right in the title: to fight racism it's not enough to be not racist, one must be antiracist. The book is about defining this term and explaining that premise. The book makes a lot of points, some good, some strained, but I don't believe "racial discrimination is necessary" is one of them.…

     > Did you read the book?
Yes.

    > I don't believe "racial discrimination is necessary" is one of them.
Did you read the book?

Racial equity (as opposed to racial equality) by definition requires racial discrimination. There is no other way to achieve the "desired" equitable outcomes other than racial preferences. It's a point acknowledged in Kendi's work along with every other "antiracist" author of note.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#284

Post by dang »

fancybouncy wrote: post #273
dang wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN threads don't need to be technical, scientific, or engineering. They just need to be intellectually interesting ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ). Anything as prominent in humanity and history as religion is certainly that. However, flamewars destroy intellectual interest (put bluntly, they're predictable, nasty and dumb), and it's nearly impossible for a large community to discuss religion with…

i believe that flagging my comment was not an attempt to avoid flamewars, but plain censorship of a honest intellectual question that any society taking a stance, against or in favor of multiculturalism (that is, hosting non-integrated completely different cultures within its borders), must confront sooner of later when things like this lecturer's ordeal start happening. The article was a concrete instance of the abs…

You can call it censorship if you want—people mostly use that word nowadays to express a feeling—but the moderation point is that you plainly broke HN's rules with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34298516, and doing that will get you banned here.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#285

Post by ModernMech »

yucky wrote: post #283
ModernMech wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He does, and it forms the foundation of the book "How to be an Antiracist" Did you read the book? The foundation of the book is right in the title: to fight racism it's not enough to be not racist, one must be antiracist. The book is about defining this term and explaining that premise. The book makes a lot of points, some good, some strained, but I don't believe "racial discrimination is necessary" is one of them.…

> Did you read the book? Yes. > I don't believe "racial discrimination is necessary" is one of them. Did you read the book? Racial equity (as opposed to racial equality ) by definition requires racial discrimination. There is no other way to achieve the "desired" equitable outcomes other than racial preferences. It's a point acknowledged in Kendi's work along with every other "antiracist" author of note.

> Did you read the book?

Yes, and I did not get your interpretation at all. Considering the fact that in our discussion you've misrepresented a quote from Kendi, and built strawmen to argue points never made by Kendi or myself (to the point you couldn't even recognize my argument, instead favoring to argue against the strawman you've built), I'm wondering if you haven't strawmanned the entire book.

In a previous post I asked you to substantiate your argument with quotes from the book, but you haven't. If you don't want to substantiate your argument I think we're done here.

> Racial equity (as opposed to racial equality) by definition requires racial discrimination.

This idea is unrecognizable to me. It seems more like a caricature of what progressives and anti-racists believe than what they actually believe (which is a common thread that unifies your posts). If we want to try at a definition, here's one as good as any:

"Racial equity is a process of eliminating racial disparities and improving outcomes for everyone."

https://www.raceforward.org/about/what-is-racial-equity-key-...

Here's another one:

"Racial equity is achieved when race no longer factors into or determines one’s socioeconomic outcomes. It is when everyone has what they need to thrive, no matter where they live or how they identify."

https://unitedwaynca.org/blog/what-is-racial-equity-definiti...

So we have a definition for racial equity used by a notable antiracist org (united way) that explicitly says racial equity is achieved in through an absence of racial discrimination, not through it.

Again, bring some quotes or some other source to support your position and we can have a discussion.

> There is no other way to achieve the "desired" equitable outcomes other than racial preferences.

You also insisted that the only way to determine someone's race is to use a color chart (and also your view of race is very narrow -- it's not about skin tone), so I think your imagination is lacking. In fact if you actually listen to anti-racists (which is distinct from pretending to listen and then putting the words in their mouths you wish they had said), you'd hear that equity is achieved through anti-racism, which is not just reflected racism as you are claiming.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#286

Post by ModernMech »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #211
yucky wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well then I don't get it. Putting up depictions of Mohammad can easily be viewed as inflammatory discrimination against Muslims, but that's ok? Although it was unnecessarily inflammatory in my opinion, it isn't a universal belief among Muslims that Mohammad can't be depicted and it certainly isn't a core tenet of Islam. If anything, one would argue that depictions of Mohammad should be treated the same as depiction…

Ps, side question. How do you make the quoted part of the comment come out in a different font like that?

Prepend a paragraph with two spaces

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#287

Post by yucky »

ModernMech wrote: post #285
yucky wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did you read the book? Yes. > I don't believe "racial discrimination is necessary" is one of them. Did you read the book? Racial equity (as opposed to racial equality ) by definition requires racial discrimination. There is no other way to achieve the "desired" equitable outcomes other than racial preferences. It's a point acknowledged in Kendi's work along with every other "antiracist" author of note.

> Did you read the book? Yes, and I did not get your interpretation at all. Considering the fact that in our discussion you've misrepresented a quote from Kendi, and built strawmen to argue points never made by Kendi or myself (to the point you couldn't even recognize my argument, instead favoring to argue against the strawman you've built), I'm wondering if you haven't strawmanned the entire book. In a previous post…

   > "Racial equity is a process of eliminating racial disparities and improving outcomes for everyone."
Uh huh. Now show us how you change racial disparities without using racial preferences/discrimination. By definition, it's not possible. Policies have to consider race first and tilt scales in order to achieve these objectives.

I'd encourage you to try and find some actual examples that run counter to this, and see for yourself.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#288

Post by totalZero »

wazoox wrote: post #281
totalZero wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly the article says the student is a girl. How much do you really know about her and her attitude if you didn't read that part of the article? Regarding your experience with a refugee...doing good isn't a cache of poker chips. You can't justify judging a person today based on using something good that you said/did yesterday. I don't think it's right to say something along the lines of "we might as well send this…

I strongly disagree. The professor said that she was about to show the picture and people who didn't like it had the option to not look at it. It was a planned, extremely deliberate aggression from the student to make a point about her intolerant, hateful interpretation of Islam. By going in a US University she knew that she would be exposed to ideas that will challenge her backwards beliefs. I think intolerant relig…

Respectfully, you don't appear to understand the topic and you are heavily editorializing. I flagged your comment because it strikes me as hateful.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#289

Post by yucky »

ModernMech wrote: post #230
piaste wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? When non-puppy-kicking people are willing to publicly say "I don't kick puppies, but I agree with the puppy kickers' view that the sky is blue", the correct reaction is not to reevaluate puppy kicking (much less trying to subtly taint those people as crypto-internalized-puppy-dislikers). The correct reaction is to look up.

To be clear, the sentiment that is alt-right is > You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country but everyone else is a protected class. White, cis, hetero, Christian, men as a class are some of the most protected and powerful people in this country. POTUS, Supreme Court Chief Justice, Speaker of the House Representatives, Senate Majority Leader, Attorney Genera…

This is a logical fallacy though. Looking at the current makeup of a group doesn't prove systemic discrimination. Look at the NBA for instance, would we assume there are rules favoring black players which would explain their over-representation?

It's a common fallacy where people assume equal inputs, so if the output doesn't match something must be amiss. But the assumption was incorrect to begin with. Not everybody is equal, and different demographic cohorts may in fact over/under perform others for any number of reasons.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#290

Post by NicoJuicy »

DoctorOW wrote: post #274
NicoJuicy wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this case is exactly by people who are not tolerant.

*person. One student complained and that's the reason the original comment advocated deportation. Let's say that we were able to find one person of Christian faith who is intolerant, what country should Christians return to? Does this include a lack of religious beliefs? Where do we send anyone who fails to believe in God, much in the same way as one other person on the planet?

I can show you some places :)
Post reply on HN