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A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

nytimes.com

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Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#271

Post by noisy_boy »

boruto wrote: post #219
noisy_boy wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In India, a Lady, Nupur Sharma merely quote the Hadith about Mohammad's marriage to Aisha and she had to go underground. This is not equivalent to the case in question (to be clear about my stand, I think the firing of the lecturer was completely wrong). However, there are few things to consider in Nupur Sharma case: 1. Nupur Sharma is not a random Lady, she was the spokesperson of the ruling party BJP. As part of…

I guess the focus of OP comment was the death threats she received, the beheading that followed of a tailor. But it seems your comment sort of justifies all that because nupur is a spokesperson of a party.

My comment points out the difference between the two incidents i.e. the lecturer's behavior was NOT irresponsible and Nupur Sharma's was. Death threats are not justified in either case under any circumstances.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#272

Post by PaulRobinson »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #135
PaulRobinson wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you assuming they are foreigners? Why do you assume these were not natives in their own country who held these feelings anyway? Do you observe and respect any festivities in the calendar at all? Christmas? Thanksgiving? Easter? Passover? Diwali? Why are these not "dumb superstitions", but other people's are? You don't get to decide how somebody else is going to react to something, you only get to decide if yo…

While the OPs comment is needlessly coarse, a charitable reading still gets at something important, something you evade addressing by repeating what are effectively tired liberal relativist platitudes about neutrality. What this firing, and events like it, demonstrate is that there is a zero sum game where foundational beliefs are concerned. Here, the game is between liberalism and (this form of) Islam. If the profes…

I disagree that this has to be a zero sum game. There are many courses of action that could have been taken before, during and after the lecture by the lecturer, the students who felt affected by the lecture, and the faculty administration, none of which would have to involve punishing anybody and that would have led to a better outcome.

For example, somebody, somewhere, could have created a forum for a more socratic method to discuss these images and people's reactions to them to help improve understanding on all sides.

Saying "I'm going to do something offensive, and if you're offended that's your problem because I've told you, and I've told you I don't care about that offence", is about as constructive as a response of "I have been offended, and even though I was warned I was about to be offended and did not take the appropriate measures I was offered to protect myself from that offence, I will complain that I was offended".

Rhetoric (in the philosophical teaching sense), is a hell of a move to double down on when you're dealing with topics where the discussion itself can have real consequences.

It is not a "tired liberal relativist platitude" to suggest that a contributory cause of the issue here was all sides involved stopped caring about consequences to others, and instead all erred towards self preservation while maintaining an insistence that rhetoric will work and dialectism would fail.

Self-preservation might be rational as a mammalian instinct, but in a philosophical setting (and a lecture touching on images of theological subjects surely is such a context), it's that conservatism that is tired and relativist: true liberalism (not libertarianism), was the essential lightning rod that was missing from the conversation.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#273

Post by fancybouncy »

dang wrote: post #257
nmoadev wrote: post #82

I don't think this belongs on Hacker News. It's an issue worth discussion, but it's an a category of general controversial news that gets plenty of discussion elsewhere. Also there is no technical, scientific, or engineering context to it.

HN threads don't need to be technical, scientific, or engineering. They just need to be intellectually interesting ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ). Anything as prominent in humanity and history as religion is certainly that. However, flamewars destroy intellectual interest (put bluntly, they're predictable, nasty and dumb), and it's nearly impossible for a large community to discuss religion with…

i believe that flagging my comment was not an attempt to avoid flamewars, but plain censorship of a honest intellectual question that any society taking a stance, against or in favor of multiculturalism (that is, hosting non-integrated completely different cultures within its borders), must confront sooner of later when things like this lecturer's ordeal start happening.

The article was a concrete instance of the abstract dilemma i posed in my comment, so it was on-topic and necessary imho.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#274

Post by DoctorOW »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #119
morby wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones I know would be, yes. They’d also think it’s odd some people feel the existential need to do it.

But this case is exactly by people who are not tolerant.

*person. One student complained and that's the reason the original comment advocated deportation. Let's say that we were able to find one person of Christian faith who is intolerant, what country should Christians return to? Does this include a lack of religious beliefs? Where do we send anyone who fails to believe in God, much in the same way as one other person on the planet?

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#275

Post by totalZero »

wazoox wrote: post #164
totalZero wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your lack of patience notwithstanding, it helps to take into consideration the fact that Islamic cultural practices vary from place to place. Saying that something is Persian doesn't fully capture the context. Sudanese Muslim culture is extremely conservative and until recently included laws against apostasy. The student who complained comes from this cultural background. Persians are generally from a different sect…

> mutual respect That's the point. This student obviously doesn't have any respect for the country and the culture he's currently living in. He has a point to make and a war to wage. And that's not xenophobic to say that; I've hosted an Afghan refugees for months. I didn't try to feed him pork, and he didn't try to stab me for eating ham or not praying for Allah. There are decent people everywhere. You can be an oppr…

Firstly the article says the student is a girl. How much do you really know about her and her attitude if you didn't read that part of the article?

Regarding your experience with a refugee...doing good isn't a cache of poker chips. You can't justify judging a person today based on using something good that you said/did yesterday.

I don't think it's right to say something along the lines of "we might as well send this Sudanese person to Afghanistan for objecting to an image depicting something they consider sacrilegious."

I think you are wrong to frame the situation as a renegade student who is out to wage war. This (along with "if they don't like it, deport em") is a pretty common racist trope that is used to put Muslims down. Not saying that's your intent.

Religious freedom in the US is usually viewed in a way that differs from Europe (esp. France). Rather than forcing people to act or think secularly, Americans try to respect other people's boundaries as they are. It's a fundamentally different concept. No idea where you're from, but based on your attitude toward the meaning of "mutual respect" I'm guessing France.

It is likely that a Sudanese Muslim will view a depiction of the Muslim prophet as impermissible, and that a Persian Muslim will not. Why conflate the two?

There's more context in the school newspaper. [0] "'I am showing you this image for a reason. And that is that there is this common thinking that Islam completely forbids, outright, any figurative depictions or any depictions of holy personages. While many Islamic cultures do strongly frown on this practice, I would like to remind you there is no one, monothetic Islamic culture,' the professor said before changing to the slide that included these depictions."

The lecturer was aware that the images would be considered by many Muslims as forbidden. The head of the university's Muslim Students' Association was in the class. The lecture was on video and undoubtedly reviewed by the administration before they chose to let the adjunct professor go.

To me, it seems like this was a self-own by the lecturer rather than some kind of "war" waged (as you put it) by a student.

[0] https://hamlineoracle.com/10750/news/who-belongs/

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#276

Post by yucky »

ModernMech wrote: post #267
yucky wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave you the data that shows your claims of generational wealth trickling through to an entire race of people, are false. You haven't addressed that. You are the one making the argument that we need racial discrimination to right past wrongs. I gave you the reasons that is not only immoral, but unworkable. So if you have some method to make your vision of present & future racial discrimination a net benefit for soc…

You supplied three links about how wealthy families lose fortunes over time, I don't think they're really relevant to the discussion. They don't address anything we're talking about here, which is how some groups are systemically held back by building wealth in the first place.

What is the argument for basing policies on race, rather than actual need? Also, how do you verify race?

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#277

Post by dekhn »

atlintots wrote: post #255
dekhn wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a gorgeous piece of art and I am truly surprised that even the faithful would see this as blasphemous. Islamic art is really underappreciated in the west.

That's definitely not Islamic art, though. Islamic art quite notably does not depict humans or animals, and instead combines calligraphy and geometric patterns (and floral, maybe? I'm not entirely sure). You should definitely check that out too, though, it's beautiful! As for this art piece, I think it would certainly cause some controversy. I'm a Muslim myself, and afaik depictions of living beings are discouraged,…

Sorry, I guess I should have said "Persian" art? I'm having trouble finding the origin of the painting, this is about it: "The illustration was originally found in a work of history called “The Compendium of Chronicles” (or “Jami al-Tawarikh” in Arabic) by Rashid al-Din Hamadani (1247–1318), a Persian physician and bureaucrat who served the Mongol conquerors of Iran in the 13th and 14th centuries."

Dunno if I agree all Islamic art doesnt depic humans, that does not agree with what I've seen in museums. Also, since it's a representation of an event that occurred in islam, I thin kit's not entirely unfair to say it's "islamic art" even if it was created by a Persian jew.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#278

Post by ModernMech »

yucky wrote: post #276
ModernMech wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You supplied three links about how wealthy families lose fortunes over time, I don't think they're really relevant to the discussion. They don't address anything we're talking about here, which is how some groups are systemically held back by building wealth in the first place.

What is the argument for basing policies on race, rather than actual need? Also, how do you verify race?

1) You are the only one here arguing about race-based policies. Neither I nor the passage you quoted by Ibram X. Kendi make such an argument (if Kendi makes the argument that racial discrimination is necessary, I don't agree with that. But the passage you quoted isn't making that point). I don't know if he makes that argument elsewhere, but as far as this discussion goes, that's something you're arguing against, not what I'm arguing for. In that sense, this argument of yours is a continuation of your strawman argument from before.

To be clear: not all discrimination is racial discrimination, and you don't need to racially discriminate to fix the effects of racial discrimination. Saying we need discrimination is not the same as saying we need racial discrimination.

2) Although this discussion surrounds race and focuses on rectifying past racial discrimination, we don't have to turn to future racial discrimination to rectify it. The point is that we do have to discriminate, however. I believe even you recognize and admit the need for that, because you suggested as much in your earlier post.

For example, we can recognize the impact racist policies like redlining had on minority communities. We can fix this past discrimination by investing in those areas, which of course involves discrimination. We don't have to decide who gets those dollars based on race, but we are basing who gets those dollars on past racial discrimination.

3) If you want to implement a policy based on race, obviously you can just ask the person what their race is. It's okay to let people self-report sometimes. Or market the program to people who are in the specific community you are targeting and ask for proof of residence. There's lots of things you can do, but literally no one has color swatches or endeavors to implement such practices. That's a strawman.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#279

Post by crabkin »

narag wrote: post #54
crabkin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope no obligation, but just as we say for freedom of speech in some other context, like for instance, say you were to use a pejorative term to a person it may apply to, you may not have the "obligation to give any remote fuck" about how they feel about it, likewise that doesn't prevent you from getting punched in the face or being perceived by others as lacking tact/self-awareness.

punched in the face or being perceived... "or"

don't understand your comment. maybe I should have put and/or. downvoted because I go against the grain here, clearly though, everyone must concede you don't live in a vacuum and social/biological dynamics do not bow down to your personal cultural ones. if you've never been punched in the face before I encourage you try your very best to and only then can I take what you say on these sorts of matters seriously.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#280

Post by yucky »

ModernMech wrote: post #278
yucky wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the argument for basing policies on race, rather than actual need? Also, how do you verify race?

1) You are the only one here arguing about race-based policies. Neither I nor the passage you quoted by Ibram X. Kendi make such an argument (if Kendi makes the argument that racial discrimination is necessary, I don't agree with that. But the passage you quoted isn't making that point). I don't know if he makes that argument elsewhere, but as far as this discussion goes, that's something you're arguing against, not…

    > You are the only one here arguing about race-based policies. Neither I nor the passage you quoted by Ibram X. Kendi make such an argument (if Kendi makes the argument that racial discrimination is necessary, I don't agree with that. But the passage you quoted isn't making that point)
He does, and it forms the foundation of the book "How to be an Antiracist" which is where it is made, and the book is one of the most widely cited books from those who support the concept of racial equity (ie racial policy preferences to achieve specific outcomes by skin color). If you don't support racial preferences/discrimination that's good, but it certainly seemed like you were defending it throughout this exchange. And by backing Kendi, you are backing a racist. It's certainly within your rights, I just don't agree with it.

    > If you want to implement a policy based on race, obviously you can just ask the person what their race is.
Why would we ever want the government to participate in racial discrimination though? We've seen that never ends well and only leads to resentment and divisiveness.
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