Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

insideevs.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 283 posts

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#241

Post by DwnVoteHoneyPot »

chmod775 wrote: post #124
glitchc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't argue that Tesla's smaller than Mercedes when Tesla's market cap is so much larger. In 2021, at it's peak Tesla's market cap crossed $1.2 Trillion. Daimler at it's peak this year only reached $81 Billion (although climbing). Why couldn't Tesla just buy out Daimler? Even now Tesla sitting at a valuation of $372 Billion. It could happen tomorrow. Tell me Elon's the savvy businessman you claim him to be. If Gates…

Falsehoods HN believes about market cap... Market cap has little to do with actual size of a company (employees, manufacturing capacity, ...), nor can a company with a larger market cap automatically buy a smaller one. Especially the latter completely ignores how markets work. These mistakes are particularly egregious when you bring meme stocks like Tesla into it.

Especially egregious when the HN posters could take a second to look up financials on Yahoo Finance.

Revenues: Tesla $75B. Mercedes $144B.

Op Income: Tesla $12B. Mercedes $18B.

Assets: Tesla $62B. Mercedes $260B.

But according to this guy, "it could happen tomorrow".

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#242

Post by idiotsecant »

lots2learn wrote: post #215
TacticalCoder wrote: post #203

I drive a lot and I don't know if I'm crazy or not but instead of a car which can "mostly self drive but which I must watch at all times for something could wrong", I want instead a car that watches me while I drive and which prevents me from making most dangerous things. Rephrasing it: I don't want to be the one preventing the car from doing stupid things. I want the car to be preventing me from doing stupid things.…

The nudge when leaving a lane is annoying and something I turn off. Going near / over the lane lines happens inadvertently from time to time while driving and the nudge often catches me by surprise. I worry it might cause me to instinctively pull the wheel back too hard by mistake causing an accident.

Going over lane lines does not happen inadvertently with any frequency to most people who are paying attention. If this is happening often enough and you're zoned out enough that this is something that might cause you to over-correct I question if you ought to be driving at all.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#243

Post by idiotsecant »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #203

I drive a lot and I don't know if I'm crazy or not but instead of a car which can "mostly self drive but which I must watch at all times for something could wrong", I want instead a car that watches me while I drive and which prevents me from making most dangerous things. Rephrasing it: I don't want to be the one preventing the car from doing stupid things. I want the car to be preventing me from doing stupid things.…

I agree, but I am quite cautious of technology which prevents me from doing something and much more comfortable with and welcoming of technology that informs me that I'm doing something unsafe, so that I can not do that thing.

There is a post going around just this morning about a Tesla that stopped itself on a major bridge in San Diego and caused a huge accident and pileup. I don't want technology that has the ability to take action like that on it's own. I don't trust it's decision making enough for that.

The idea is baffling to me that anyone lets self-driving software pilot a multi-ton steel missile that contains the only body they will ever get hurtling through an asphalt field full of other humans and an environment that is often not predictable and actively hostile. I write automation for a living, and like everyone else I know that does the same I want automation in safety-critical applications to be as simple, bulletproof, and limited as possible. Self-driving software does not fall into that category right now. Some day it probably will. Until that time I won't be buying it.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#244

Post by lp0_on_fire »

tialaramex wrote: post #182
Dylan16807 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look at level 2 through level 4 as a spectrum of how much warning a driver gets before they have to take over. Level 2 is 0 seconds; the driver has to watch constantly. Level 4 is indefinite, or alternatively we could say "minutes". The car can pull over if necessary. For this particular level 3 system, it's 10 seconds. That seems pretty reasonable for level 3. And as you said, the ODD of levels 3 and 4 is entirely…

Even your Level 5 domain is dubious as I've written before. Jim would drive in a blizzard, some Level 5 car refuses to drive in a blizzard. Is the car faulty by this definition or is Jim a lunatic ? I think it's probably Jim. I think Level 4 is clearer because it's closer to public transit. Somebody else (the machine) is driving, so if I'm day dreaming, or indeed asleep, nothing bad happens. I can listen to tunes, ha…

> As I understand it, there's no reason you'd need a Driving License to ride in a Waymo for example. Waymo is driving, you're in the back like a cab, why would you need a license?

You "need" a license and insurance because Waymo and other self-driving companies will never ever allow a scenario where they're liable for accidents. They'll move heaven and earth to prevent it.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#245

Post by fluoridation »

tialaramex wrote: post #182
Dylan16807 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look at level 2 through level 4 as a spectrum of how much warning a driver gets before they have to take over. Level 2 is 0 seconds; the driver has to watch constantly. Level 4 is indefinite, or alternatively we could say "minutes". The car can pull over if necessary. For this particular level 3 system, it's 10 seconds. That seems pretty reasonable for level 3. And as you said, the ODD of levels 3 and 4 is entirely…

Even your Level 5 domain is dubious as I've written before. Jim would drive in a blizzard, some Level 5 car refuses to drive in a blizzard. Is the car faulty by this definition or is Jim a lunatic ? I think it's probably Jim. I think Level 4 is clearer because it's closer to public transit. Somebody else (the machine) is driving, so if I'm day dreaming, or indeed asleep, nothing bad happens. I can listen to tunes, ha…

>Jim would drive in a blizzard, some Level 5 car refuses to drive in a blizzard. Is the car faulty by this definition or is Jim a lunatic ?

What if staying where he is poses a greater risk to Jim than driving on the road? Why should the car decide for Jim what an acceptable level of risk is, when Jim (presumably) has more information to make that decision?

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#246

Post by Dylan16807 »

tialaramex wrote: post #182
Dylan16807 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look at level 2 through level 4 as a spectrum of how much warning a driver gets before they have to take over. Level 2 is 0 seconds; the driver has to watch constantly. Level 4 is indefinite, or alternatively we could say "minutes". The car can pull over if necessary. For this particular level 3 system, it's 10 seconds. That seems pretty reasonable for level 3. And as you said, the ODD of levels 3 and 4 is entirely…

Even your Level 5 domain is dubious as I've written before. Jim would drive in a blizzard, some Level 5 car refuses to drive in a blizzard. Is the car faulty by this definition or is Jim a lunatic ? I think it's probably Jim. I think Level 4 is clearer because it's closer to public transit. Somebody else (the machine) is driving, so if I'm day dreaming, or indeed asleep, nothing bad happens. I can listen to tunes, ha…

> Even your Level 5 domain is dubious as I've written before. Jim would drive in a blizzard, some Level 5 car refuses to drive in a blizzard. Is the car faulty by this definition or is Jim a lunatic ? I think it's probably Jim.

I would put it up to the "reasonable person" test. I'm not sure what's dubious about the fact that "human level" doesn't and can't mean you're a perfect match to every human.

> I think Level 4 is clearer because it's closer to public transit.

I don't know if it's clearer in the general case. Basically any set of operating restrictions that is sub-human counts as level 4, and you could have a detailed and nuanced list of operating restrictions on level 4 that's just as complicated or more complicated than a level 5 setup.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#247

Post by Dylan16807 »

oblio wrote: post #169
Dylan16807 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm imagining it going up 2%. What's your imagination?

To give a simple example, the US spends a ton of infrastructure. Yet it doesn't even have really smart traffic lights like the Dutch do. https://youtu.be/knbVWXzL4-4?t=21 Just think about any large scale governmental software project and amplify that 10-100x. That's what I imagine :-) > The design of the website was overseen by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services and built by a number of federal contractor…

> To give a simple example, the US spends a ton of infrastructure. Yet it doesn't even have really smart traffic lights like the Dutch do.

That's not an example of what it would cost, though.

> Just think about any large scale governmental software project and amplify that 10-100x. That's what I imagine :-)

If I imagine the software costing ten million dollars, and then balloon it to a billion, I think that's still only half a percent of the annual road budget.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#248

Post by Dylan16807 »

ZainRiz wrote: post #240
Dylan16807 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not safe to nap, but you can do the rest of that. They're promising 10 seconds of warning when the car wants you to take over.

I wonder how much of those 10 seconds would the car spend trying to notify the driver. "Warning, take the wheel! Death imminent" takes a good 6 seconds to say :P

I think you should try actually saying that out loud. If I don't pause after the word "wheel", I can say that at a reasonable pace in two seconds.

Just "Warning, take the wheel!" gives you time to pause between each repetition and still say it 5 times.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#249

Post by jjav »

akmarinov wrote: post #187
rsync wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't handle mode switching in this manner. If you are responsible for two tons of metal flying down the road at 70 mph you need to be fully engaged in that task. We can handle being passengers and we can handle being drivers but we can't switch in a split second. So my contention is that level-X where X is less than "I can fall asleep in the back seat" is a deadly valley between unassisted driving and passive pas…

> If you are responsible for two tons of metal flying down the road at 70 mph That's the thing - you're not. Once engaged, Mercedes takes liability, so you're no longer responsible.

> That's the thing - you're not. Once engaged, Mercedes takes liability, so you're no longer responsible.

Legally (though surely to be tested in court).

Morally though, I'd say the driver is still responsible if they kill someone. It doesn't feel right to say "Oh well, it's Mercedes' fault, shrug" after your car with you in it drives over someone else.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#250

Post by Dylan16807 »

vagrantJin wrote: post #236
Dylan16807 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a narrative would be immediately called out. I really don't think that kind of trickery is something to worry about. > things can change dramatically in a few seconds at highway speeds In the immediate term, "brake enough not to hit things" is a very good default response and a computer should be better than a human at doing so.

> Such a narrative would be immediately called out. Really? Tesla has done exactly that - refusing liability because autopilot returned control to the driver in less than a second before the crash.[0] No one called them out on it. There was a lot of hand wringing and feigned outrage but Musk's ass needs to be kissed and it ain't gonna kiss itself. [0]( https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2022/05/18/nhtsa... )

I don't see that in the link you provided? I think I heard of this crash, but I don't remember specifics, and it looks like Tesla didn't comment.

On a page of statistics they put together, they said "we count any crash in which Autopilot was deactivated within 5 seconds before impact", and that seems sufficient for a level 2 system.

Post reply on HN