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We need a lot more electricians

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101–110 of 533 posts

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#101

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

> likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's. A GFCI costs only $20 and can be installed inside 10 minutes. So it seems crazy to be letting people die... Yet typically electrical regs require that if an electrician installs a GFCI, they bring the whole house up to modern standard…

There is a good chance that if you installed GFCI in some old house it would just... trip due to shitty wiring.

But yeah, the law should probably have exception for installing safety devices, it's better to have some than zero because someone can't afford it.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#102
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voltage to residential main electrical service panels in the United States is 240V. Major appliances run on 240V circuits. So when you install a 400A panel in the US, it's 400A*240V which is 96,000W.

And service in EU is 380V, so the relationship between the numbers remains similar.

That is incorrect. The EU/UK are on 230V at 50Hz at residential service entry.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I got the exterior siding of my home replaced, we also wanted to have our electrical meter box replaced because it was falling off the side of the house. The work we originally thought was needed was just a new meter box. Turned out we needed a new wire run from the meter all the way to our water line, a new pipe for the underground wiring, two additional grounding wires. The utility said it wasnt their problem…

> Nearly $2000 to get a simple meter box replacement. If it’s so simple, why didn’t you do it and save $2,000? Part of that price is uncertainty due to scheduling/coordinating with the siding contractor and utility. Everything after the meter, including grounding conductors, are premises wiring aka your responsibility. Having your electrical service properly grounded sure beats being electrocuted. I manage electricia…

> If it’s so simple, why didn’t you do it

UK note: under "Part P" rules, it is significantly harder to legally do your own electrical work. https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/find-an-electrician...

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#104
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd never heard of a 400 A service until just this discussion (it's common to have 100 A - 200 A), but it's important to keep in mind the voltage differences and that effect on total power: UK: 100 A x 230 V = 23,00 W US: 200 A x 120 V = 24,00 W Edit: I am wrong in my understanding of US power distribution. It's 200 A per leg, which the US has two of. But it seems like the UK may or may not have 380 3 Phase, so the n…

> but it's important to keep in mind the voltage differences and that effect on total power: > UK: 100 A x 230 V = 23,00 W > US: 200 A x 120 V = 24,00 W That's incorrect. The service drop in the US is 220V. It gets stepped down at the main load center to 120V for most of the regular circuits. So it's more like 48000W service in US houses.

Only small correction to that is that load center doesn't step down voltage. The center tapped transformer at the street steps down the voltage to 240V, but then that center tap on the transformer becomes your neutral so you end up with two legs that are 120V from ground/neutral and 240V from leg to leg in your load center.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#105

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

Where do you live? In a lot of municipalities any out-of-code work can remain unless they are actively touching that part of the system. For instance, if you had ungrounded outlets in your house, but were just getting a drop for a ceiling fan you wouldn't have to install grounds as part of that work. So they must have been having to touch all those components anyway.

If you're mounting EV charger, or heat pump you'd me most likely running separate circuit off main box for them.

Which means you have to fix the main box. Which is most expensive part to fix.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Required to sheath ground in green? What on earth for? That makes ground less effective since you want any incidental contact with ground to ground the object touching it.

Electrical specs are very strict. They aren't just about electrical safety directly, but also about not potentially confusing people in the future. If the cable was black, then someone may not have known that it was an earth cable, and might have cut it, which would leave your electrical installation unsafe. Thats the reasoning why using the wrong color for a wire can make it illegal.

[deleted]

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#107
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Grid is not ready for this it need significant capital upgrades. Yes its designed for peak load but the load profile is changing significantly. And no you absolutely cant just load shift away heating and transportation of residential homes. That isn't cost free and we don't even have the projects in place to manage that yet.

Transportation is literally already battery, it is trivial to load shift charging, and in fact standard practice for anybody with electric transportation already! Heating is similarly trivial to load shift; heat or cool a little extra before the peak, stop during the peak, and then pick up afterwards. This goes for both space and water heating. Do you have any evidence about what upgrades are needed? I have a feeling…

Two pieces of evidence.

1) Places today have rolling brown outs at times in the year. Some power companies have seasons where they ask customers to limit their electricity use. Even peak load today can be a problem and the electrification of all the things means peak load will increase.

2) Articles that dig into this call out how the power grid will need to change to support the growth in consumption. When it's covered and experts speak they highlight the need for change to meet demand.

Can you refute these?

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#108

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

> likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's. A GFCI costs only $20 and can be installed inside 10 minutes. So it seems crazy to be letting people die... Yet typically electrical regs require that if an electrician installs a GFCI, they bring the whole house up to modern standard…

There is no way a pro can install a GFCI for less than $150 in the ideal case where everything else is up to code. Anything non ideal adds cost. While there isn't much labor, you also have to count the time to get from the last job to yours, and other overhead.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#109
I'm curious if there is some productivity-improving tech for electricians waiting to be invented. The following will be super North-America-centric, but:

Right now you have to fasten a box to the wall structure, cut the wire so that about 8" can make its way into the box, strip the outer insulation and insert it into the box, strip at least some of the individual conductors, and then splice (by twisting and using wire nuts, or less commonly using a press-fit dingus) the ones that need to be spliced.

You then repeat that for every outlet (which in electrician-speak includes lamps and such) on the circuit. Then repeat that for every circuit. You are now ready for your "rough" electrical inspection (the one before the in-wall wiring is covered).

Then before the final inspection you have to individually connect each conductor to (usually) a screw on the actual device before cramming^H^H^H^H^H^H carefully folding the wire back into the box and screwing the device in place, followed by screwing the cover in place.

Repeat for every outlet in the unit and you are ready for your final inspection.

What I'm picturing is a special box that can insulation-displacement-crimp right onto the wire (probably with some giant pliers. On the inside it has some sockets that the eventual device plugs straight into, possibly with a sort of optional middleware layer that can reconfigure the connections for less common hookups.

So you crimp all the boxes to the wire and fasten them to the wall structure and you're ready for the rough inspection.

Then after the walls are covered you plug in the devices directly for all of the common configurations (e.g. just a receptacle in a string of receptacles) and fiddle with some kind of middle layer for the oddball configurations (e.g. a duplex receptacle where one of them is switched).

As an alternative to the "middleware" maybe there are a collection of different boxes that are pre-configured for the circuit arrangement in question (not unlike plumbing components are today).

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#110

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

Where do you live? In a lot of municipalities any out-of-code work can remain unless they are actively touching that part of the system. For instance, if you had ungrounded outlets in your house, but were just getting a drop for a ceiling fan you wouldn't have to install grounds as part of that work. So they must have been having to touch all those components anyway.

Almost for sure that's what happened to the OP as he was having an external disconnect, so the entire panel got depowered + likely big lines were run for whatever he needed the disconnect for. There's sometime exceptions for Solar now that don't require full upgrades, but some cities don't give a fuck.

The US is way worst about this than most other places though. Here they inspect your insulator, lead-in wires, meter, and distribution panel and then ask what if any problems you are having (they is the power company) every four years. Mostly the electrician/contractor does the work and there's no inspection of that.

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