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A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

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231–240 of 294 posts

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#231
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either they're all ok or none are ok. Ibram X. Kendi is making a few points in the quoted passage. The first is that it's not enough to just say "no more discrimination" after the entire system has already been set up to discriminate. That just results in a system that perpetuates discrimination. To illustrate with an example: you and I sit down to play a game of Monopoly. Except instead of letting you play from th…

Your analogy doesn't work because it assumes anything that happens to your ancestors necessarily affects you directly for every generation that comes after, forever. Your monopoly example is using a game that you and I play in directly against each other, when the reality is we have no idea how much positive or negative impact the ancestors of any given person has had on their lot in life. Do you think people in Appa…

> anything that happens to your ancestors necessarily affects you directly for every generation that comes after, forever.

No, that's not what I said. The point is that the state of the system interplays with the rules governing the system. You can't ignore the state of the system and declare the game fair by looking at just the rules.

> when the reality is we have no idea how much positive or negative impact the ancestors of any given person has had on their lot in life.

I mean, we do though. Generational wealth is a thing. American slavery isn't even the distant past; the last person born into slavery died within living memory.

> If the concern is that we want to help those who need financial assistance, or educational assistance or whatever then there are ways to do that with means testing

Right, which involves a process of discrimination to correct for past discrimination.

> not by relying on a Sherwin Williams color chart held up against your skin.

Of course there are better ways to do things than this terrible strawman you built.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#232
post #207
post #202

Hi, a "fundamentalist Muslim" here, bite me Why is it so hard to accept that some people have redlines, once violated you leave no place for respect anymore? Is it a hard concept or is it entitlement that makes you feel you have the upper moral ground? What do you all think about the UN forcing LGBTQ+ rights on Muslims in their own countries? Do you consider that "freedoms" too? or is it proxy colonization? I wonder.…

Why do you consider a painting of someone which is not mocking them to be mocking them?

Because she knew it's prohibited and it's not what we do and everyone seems to be taking their free speech dig at our prophet and I would assume this is no different, because there is literally no reason to bring that image.

However, I think they should have left the class and contacted her regarding this subject and firing her probably was an overkill and done to make the problem go away, though not sure why the student complained to the administration before contacting her despite her giving warnings to the students.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#233
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy doesn't work because it assumes anything that happens to your ancestors necessarily affects you directly for every generation that comes after, forever. Your monopoly example is using a game that you and I play in directly against each other, when the reality is we have no idea how much positive or negative impact the ancestors of any given person has had on their lot in life. Do you think people in Appa…

> anything that happens to your ancestors necessarily affects you directly for every generation that comes after, forever. No, that's not what I said. The point is that the state of the system interplays with the rules governing the system. You can't ignore the state of the system and declare the game fair by looking at just the rules. > when the reality is we have no idea how much positive or negative impact the anc…

   > I mean, we do though. Generational wealth is a thing. American slavery isn't even the distant past
70% of generational wealth is lost by the 2nd generation, 90% by the 3rd generation[1][2][3], and it grows even more distant each generation after that. American slavery was around 15-20 generations ago, meaning there is almost zero generational wealth left in the same family hands from slavery. Also, a tiny percentage of American are even descended from a slave holding family in the first place..

So if 15-20 generations isn't long enough, how many more generations into the future would you say we need to discriminate against people based on skin color before we can call it enough? And what do we do about the millions of poor people with the wrong color skin, just keep discriminating against them due to their race and hope they don't take it personally?

   > Of course there are better ways to do things than this terrible strawman you built.
It's not a strawman though. If you're basing preferential treatment on race, how exactly do you determine that? Race isn't a scientific thing, so we have to either take people at their word or use a color chart. Is there a different method you had in mind?

[1] https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/generational-wealth:-why-do-...

[2] https://money.com/rich-families-lose-wealth/

[3] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-why-90-of-rich-peopl...

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#234
post #90
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the harm a group of those fanatics can achieve if one student can make a whole University comply to his intolerant whims. Karl Popper famously said that an open and tolerant society must manage carefully the intolerant... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

You realize there are 2 million Muslims living in America without any problem right? Take your bigotry elsewhere, HN is typically more elevated than that.

But not one single of them asked the university to readmit the teacher. None emailed or marched in front of the university to support the teacher. This is a big part of the real problem.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#235
post #202

Hi, a "fundamentalist Muslim" here, bite me Why is it so hard to accept that some people have redlines, once violated you leave no place for respect anymore? Is it a hard concept or is it entitlement that makes you feel you have the upper moral ground? What do you all think about the UN forcing LGBTQ+ rights on Muslims in their own countries? Do you consider that "freedoms" too? or is it proxy colonization? I wonder.…

> Why is it so hard to accept that some people have redlines I accept they have, but I'm not obligated to respect them. Imagine a world where it's sufficient to declare an arbitrary redline to force the rest of humanity to respect it.

I think you have a point because she warned the students, gave them a chance to leave and asked them to contact her if they find any issues with this.

I don't know why they did that to her they should have left the class and contacted her later to take exemption from the classes she's going to use those pictures in.

I don't know how to feel about this but firing her and complaining to the administration before contacting her to clarify the situation, these are 2 wrongs I won't defend.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is. There are plenty of more or less practising Muslims who behave perfectly well and are strongly opposed to theocracy. Bit of a false scottsman. Not every Italian eats Tagliatelle and joins the Mafia but it's still an Italian recipe.

> Bit of a false scottsman. That’s a bit disingenuous. It’s easy to see who is Muslim and who is not: you just need to ask them. I don’t see a reason to say they aren’t when they identify themselves that way and believe in that religion. I am not saying that only moderates are true Muslims, just that there are more believers than the fundamentalists. > Not every Italian eats Tagliatelle and joins the Mafia but it's s…

Strawman on top of the false scottsman. Nobody said that all Muslims are murderers.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#237
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thus apparently extends to gender or rather sexuality as well recently. I've been banned for asking why my sexuality - heterosexual, is excluded, actually not even asked why but if a flag representing my sexuality existed, since there were a bunch of flags that represented every possible spectrum, even asexuality. I am not at all racist, my best friend has dark skin, but I also can't help but notice that on social ne…

You’ve never had to fight for basic human rights as a white straight person.

> You’ve never had to fight for basic human rights as a white straight person.

Look for the etymology of the term "slave". You will be surprised.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#238
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst thing is that the white left decides what is offensive or not. I’m Asian and most of the things they claim as racism against Asian are so cringe, literally nobody cares.

Yes, it's cringe because it's said as a laughing matter and can have no consequences nowadays or it mostly doesn't. I used to think this way too before and I am still not liberal but the thing with racism is, the start might be jokes but once it's systematic because "nobody cares it's just jokes" those same words might start to hit differently. The liberals can be overreaching about such matters, but I personally thi…

The point is, banning things does not solve problems. It just complicates things, force people to act in certain ways to make sure they aren't racist, instead of being genuine. When I'm accepted into interviews for jobs that aren't going to hire me anyway... it just wastes my time and their time.

The problem isn't much about racism, it is about some people act like jerks. And people can be jerks with or without racism.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#239
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anything that happens to your ancestors necessarily affects you directly for every generation that comes after, forever. No, that's not what I said. The point is that the state of the system interplays with the rules governing the system. You can't ignore the state of the system and declare the game fair by looking at just the rules. > when the reality is we have no idea how much positive or negative impact the anc…

> I mean, we do though. Generational wealth is a thing. American slavery isn't even the distant past 70% of generational wealth is lost by the 2nd generation, 90% by the 3rd generation[1][2][3], and it grows even more distant each generation after that. American slavery was around 15-20 generations ago, meaning there is almost zero generational wealth left in the same family hands from slavery. Also, a tiny percentag…

> American slavery was around 15-20 generations ago

Maybe you missed where I said the last person born into slavery died in living memory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_last_survivors_of_Am...

But the discussion of slavery kind of misses the larger point; that systemic discrimination was not in fact dismantled in America with the end of chattel slavery. Other systems replaced the intent, and those persisted long past the Civil War, well into recent history to today.

> It's not a strawman though. If you're basing preferential treatment on race, how exactly do you determine that?

No one is holding up color scales to people’s skin, and no one suggested doing so, certainly not me. That’s how your argument is a straw man.

It sounds like you are trying to make a different argument now, and if you want to make that one without building a straw man, please do so.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#240
post #176
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morocco and Andalucia are pretty close, you can spot Morocco´s coast from some places. Also, there is the issue of Ceuta and Melilla.

Yes, only a stone's throw. Why doesn't Spain have the ~6% Muslim population of France or Germany?

Getting goods from Spain can be done without needing to make a big trip, thus, needing to settle yourself for long in France.
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