A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job • Hacker News Board

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#201

Post by yodsanklai » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 4:55 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #92

wonderwonder wrote: post #55

This was the wrong decision. Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country but everyone else is a protected class. Even speaking positively or respectfully discussing the protected classes in a vaguely defined wrong way…

> This was the wrong decision. It seems like it. It seems like the university didn’t even clearly understand that Muslims are divided on this topic before taking action. > Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country bu…

> It seems like the university didn’t even clearly understand that Muslims are divided on this topic before taking action.

Of course, I'd assume most muslim don't care about this event, besides a minority of fanatics. But I don't think it even matters. A art history teacher should be free to discuss a painting in their class no matter what "Muslims" think.

Clearly the issue is with the school here. Not the teacher, and not the "muslims". This complaining student should have been explained that her demands are not legitimate.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#202

Post by Gnob » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 4:56 PM UTC

Hi, a "fundamentalist Muslim" here, bite me

Why is it so hard to accept that some people have redlines, once violated you leave no place for respect anymore? Is it a hard concept or is it entitlement that makes you feel you have the upper moral ground?

What do you all think about the UN forcing LGBTQ+ rights on Muslims in their own countries?

Do you consider that "freedoms" too? or is it proxy colonization?

I wonder.

My heart goes for this teacher I am sure if someone depicted her or anyone, she cares about in a derogatory manner she'd be so happy and grateful and quite tolerant, she'd joke about it I guess especially if the picture was shown to a wide audience. I'd have loved to see people making derogatory cartoons of someone she loves and sharing them on the internet and seeing how much of a tolerant and freedom advocate she is.

Must be so hard for the atheists to understand that we care about our prophet and to stop mocking him and just be decent people. You have to mock religious people or otherwise you're not the cool kid I guess, because disbelieving gives you extra brain points, who gives them? nvm, they just pop up out of nowhere.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#203

Post by afroisalreadyin » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

gnull wrote: post #166

teppn wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unironically a very good point. The intolerance that many trans-rights activists show to those who don't accept that a man with a 'female gender identity' is a woman is similar to the intolerance that many followers of Islam show to non-believers. No-one on the gender critical side has been beheaded yet, but there is a surprisingly large "kill the terfs" movement that parallels the extremism of Islamists.

They aren't committing atrocities because they don't have the resources for that, not because they are ethical and chose not to. Weakness is not a virtue, we shouldn't give them credit for it.

What makes you come to the conclusion that they would "commit atrocities"? On the one hand there is constant and widespread violence perpetrated against the LGBTQ, on the other there are vague threats by a couple of anonymous accounts, and your conclusion is that "they aren't committing atrocities because they don't have the resources"? I find this comment really insensitive, to say the least.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#204

Post by yodsanklai » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

gnull wrote: post #61

Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? In the end, you will have one of the two encompass the other. Either you have a secular country living by democratic, progressive law which allows people to be Muslims modulo this. Or you have a Muslim country living by Shariah law, but tolerating secular non-believers in it. First won't work because Muslims (in the traditional sense) won't tolerate…

> Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country?

Yes it is. I don't know about Shariah law, but all muslims I know are just like anybody else. I think you're conflating some zealots with a large group of people who are mostly secular (just like lots of christians don't do anything christian besides celebrating Christmas and the occasional funeral at the church). The real issue here is some school administrators bending over because a fanatic complained.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#205

Post by Gnob » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

charlieyu1 wrote: post #104

wonderwonder wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? If you speak ill of "white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men" will you lose your job? Will you lose your job in liberal universities if you speak ill of Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, African Americans? In case of perceived bias, I'm a swing voting (95% Dem) Jew.

The worst thing is that the white left decides what is offensive or not. I’m Asian and most of the things they claim as racism against Asian are so cringe, literally nobody cares.

Yes, it's cringe because it's said as a laughing matter and can have no consequences nowadays or it mostly doesn't. I used to think this way too before and I am still not liberal but the thing with racism is, the start might be jokes but once it's systematic because "nobody cares it's just jokes" those same words might start to hit differently.

The liberals can be overreaching about such matters, but I personally think racial slurs shouldn't be tolerated a lot.

This is just my 2 cents on the subject.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#206

Post by ModernMech » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

pnf wrote: post #178

ModernMech wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how "getting tenure" is a viable strategy going forward. It's not, which is why many schools are moving away from tenured faculty and more toward contract instructors. They're paid like regular faculty (not pennies like adjuncts) but aren't on a tenure track. 3-5 year contracts give better job security than a typical job, but not a guaranteed job for life.

3-5 year contracts are maybe better than employment at will for faculty but they are of a kind with deleveraging the profession vis a vis the institution. The institutional character has shifted to big-E Education. Like big-H Health it is a rationalization of the industry that disempowers the "productive" professionals in favor of the "managerial" professionals (administrators) who manage the economic relationships (…

Honestly I feel like it gives me more leverage. Every 3-5 years the administration has to be ready for me to walk, and they need to make competitive offers to keep me. These are not like tenured positions that only open up once a generation, so it's actually worthwhile to see what else is out there, so threats to leave for greener pastures are more credible.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#207

Post by ikt » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 5:18 PM UTC

Gnob wrote: post #202

Hi, a "fundamentalist Muslim" here, bite me Why is it so hard to accept that some people have redlines, once violated you leave no place for respect anymore? Is it a hard concept or is it entitlement that makes you feel you have the upper moral ground? What do you all think about the UN forcing LGBTQ+ rights on Muslims in their own countries? Do you consider that "freedoms" too? or is it proxy colonization? I wonder.…

Why do you consider a painting of someone which is not mocking them to be mocking them?

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#208

Post by curtisblaine » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 5:19 PM UTC

Gnob wrote: post #202

Hi, a "fundamentalist Muslim" here, bite me Why is it so hard to accept that some people have redlines, once violated you leave no place for respect anymore? Is it a hard concept or is it entitlement that makes you feel you have the upper moral ground? What do you all think about the UN forcing LGBTQ+ rights on Muslims in their own countries? Do you consider that "freedoms" too? or is it proxy colonization? I wonder.…

> Why is it so hard to accept that some people have redlines

I accept they have, but I'm not obligated to respect them. Imagine a world where it's sufficient to declare an arbitrary redline to force the rest of humanity to respect it.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#209

Post by zebnyc » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #92

wonderwonder wrote: post #55

This was the wrong decision. Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country but everyone else is a protected class. Even speaking positively or respectfully discussing the protected classes in a vaguely defined wrong way…

> This was the wrong decision. It seems like it. It seems like the university didn’t even clearly understand that Muslims are divided on this topic before taking action. > Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country bu…

I disagree with the alt-right categorization. I am thankful I am not a teacher who has to lead a discussion in a liberal arts school. I am asian(Indian) and while I have heard / seen plenty of offensive content against my ilk, I have never felt threatened / fearsome or the need to play the victim card like the Ms. Wedatalla. >“Who do I call at 8 a.m.,” she asked, when “you see someone disrespecting and offending your religion?”

Over the top, much?

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#210

Post by kergonath » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

gnull wrote: post #165

hutzlibu wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Christianity, on the other hand, has very few concrete regulations" Well, have a look in the old Testament then. There are very explicit rules about how to treat homosexuals and heretics for example and they are not nice. (I like the brick testament - famous bible quotes illustrated with Lego stones) https://thebricktestament.com/the_law/homosexuality/lv20_13a... And yes, there is also Jesus, but among other things…

That still fits my idea of "few". And also doesn't Christianity give some good excuses to question or review these? Especially, considering that New Testament builds up on top of the Old Testament. I'm asking about the stuff around the quotes you've shown (otherwise we could fall for confirmation bias). Please understand me correctly. I'm not saying Christianity doesn't have cruel or bad things. I'm saying it doesn't…

> And also doesn't Christianity give some good excuses to question or review these? Especially, considering that New Testament builds up on top of the Old Testament. I'm asking about the stuff around the quotes you've shown (otherwise we could fall for confirmation bias).

To some extent, yes. Also, there is a long tradition of theological debates in Christianity, right from the beginning. Christians are much more comfortable with the idea that the Bible should not be taken literally.

Of course, there are 2 points that show up immediately when you say that. First, some Christians are literal fundamentalists so a long tradition is not enough. Second, Islam also has a long tradition of theological debates, and many different views and movements. I am not familiar enough with the History of Islam in the 20th century, but the fact is that there are lots of aspects that we associate with the religion without second thoughts that are actually Wahabbi practices. The rules against sex and alcohol are no less strict in the Old Testament than in the Quran. There is no reason why Islam would have to be more literal than any Christianism.

> With Christian rules, it's easier to find excuse to augment or re-interpret them. I'm not saying there's no rules.

That’s because we let a fundamentalist sect (well, mostly 2) redefine a whole religion.