Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

switzerlandtimes.ch

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 180 posts

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#71

Post by prottog »

throw_pm23 wrote: post #36
danuker wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point does human enjoyment become waste of energy? And so what if energy is wasted? Is greenhouse gas the problem? Paradoxically, global warming benefited Europe this winter, reducing the influence of the Russian gas embargo. In any case, European countries have lower greenhouse gas emissions per citizen than, say, the US or Australia (since we actually have emissions taxes). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis…

There was a nice comic that expressed things in terms of horse-power or "invisible slaves" working for you. When your enjoyment requires the equivalent of thousands working for you, and it is from a resource that is finite and non-renewable, then it is probably wasteful. Found it: https://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/energy-slaves/

Then it's a beautiful thing that modern life allows even those of humble means to enjoy the comforts for which kings of old would have needed thousands of actual slaves.

Every resource is finite and non-renewable considering even the sun will go out at some point. Let's not bemoan the use of fossil-sourced energy until the point we level up in technology and can master less polluting sources. After all, fossil fuels have fostered more human life than climate change will ever destroy.

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#72

Post by danuker »

throw_pm23 wrote: post #36
danuker wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point does human enjoyment become waste of energy? And so what if energy is wasted? Is greenhouse gas the problem? Paradoxically, global warming benefited Europe this winter, reducing the influence of the Russian gas embargo. In any case, European countries have lower greenhouse gas emissions per citizen than, say, the US or Australia (since we actually have emissions taxes). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis…

There was a nice comic that expressed things in terms of horse-power or "invisible slaves" working for you. When your enjoyment requires the equivalent of thousands working for you, and it is from a resource that is finite and non-renewable, then it is probably wasteful. Found it: https://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/energy-slaves/

I am not worried about fossil fuel running out. That is because, as it becomes more limited in supply, it becomes more expensive.

This will force people into reducing its use. Companies producing more efficient or alternatively-powered technology will gain the most. So, the market would address this.

On top of this, OPEC playing games is also prompting importers to find alternatives.

But I am indeed worried about the impact on the environment.

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#73

Post by tgv »

perihelions wrote: post #67
_Microft wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you consider a sufficient example to highlight the problematic mindset behind these actions then? On its own, neither the helicopter here, nor the private jet there or the cruiseship in the Mediterranean and so forth are a problem. In total, they absolutely are. What would you suggest to submit instead?

I don't think it's problematic at all. It looks to me a reasonable and proportionate investment that supported a large number of local, seasonal jobs. Amortize that fossil fuel consumption per capita -- one helicopter, over thousands of vacationers -- and it's an absolutely trivial amount. In terms of pure numbers, most HN'ers did far "worse" things on their most recent vacation, even if it were a short car trip.

If you're open to taxing for carbon footprint (to put it loosely), and it seems that that's your argument, you'll find that ski trips are going to be very costly, even more so when adding the cost of generating snow.

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#74

Post by pjc50 »

thewhitetulip wrote: post #9

I know Europe isn't as anti climate change as US but I really hope rhat the world atarts taking this seriously When Europe is as hot as Asia during summers and as hot as Asia during respective winters that clearly proves beyond a shadow of doubt that global warming is real Because Trump had said "it is snowing here" to justify xlimate denying. They have extreme polar vortex over there so they haven't yet faced the se…

This very much varies depending on where you are in Europe and who you are talking to. Much of Western Europe gets a climate that is warmer than the same latitude in the US because of the Gulf Stream. It's possible that climate change might disrupt that resulting in certain regions being _colder_.

In the meantime, the latitudes at which you can economically grow wine grapes are gradually moving northwards.

If you sort https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe... by per capita, you see that the biggest emitters are:

- Gulf states which run on oil

- Microstates/islands which have very inefficient generation

- and then Estonia is worse than the US, because it still has lots of Soviet-era coal generation.

Most of Europe has per-capita emissions about half those of the US, comparable to those of China. The US has bad emissions because of cheap petrol and over 200GW of coal fired power stations.

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#75

Post by prottog »

danuker wrote: post #72
throw_pm23 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a nice comic that expressed things in terms of horse-power or "invisible slaves" working for you. When your enjoyment requires the equivalent of thousands working for you, and it is from a resource that is finite and non-renewable, then it is probably wasteful. Found it: https://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/energy-slaves/

I am not worried about fossil fuel running out. That is because, as it becomes more limited in supply, it becomes more expensive. This will force people into reducing its use. Companies producing more efficient or alternatively-powered technology will gain the most. So, the market would address this. On top of this, OPEC playing games is also prompting importers to find alternatives. But I am indeed worried about the…

> as it becomes more limited in supply, it becomes more expensive.

Not only that, current "proven reserves" are based on what's economical to extract. As the price of oil rises, we will find more oil.

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#76

Post by doikor »

samwillis wrote: post #58

This isn't a new phenomenon or something restricted to "exclusive" resorts. I have seen this happen in other alpine ski areas over the last 5-10 years when there has been particularly bad snow. Normally in places that are of high importance and traffic, such as at the top of main lifts. Ski resorts use helicopters for many logistical activities, if it keeps the area open they will do it. This year the Alps are having…

Another trick that some resorts that have big competitions (world cup etc) early in the year now do is store snow at the end the year under some insulated plastic and/or saw dust. They can spread that to the slope and guarantee conditions for the big event.

Obviously if it is really warm it will melt away in a few days after that but at least they can have their event.

Maybe they could do the same for these important spots around lifts etc.

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#77

Post by tduberne »

dashdot wrote: post #47
seanalltogether wrote: post #20

Am I right in thinking that Gstaad is like the Aspen of Switzerland, one of the richest ski resort towns? Is this why they can get away with helicoptering in snow?

There are a lot of Aspens in Switzerland. But seriously, I hope there will be consequences. Everyone in my bubble disapproves this strongly. Yes, there is not much snow. Yes, it is crippling snow tourism. But I can't imagine there are a lot of Swiss people who think that flying in snow is justified in any way.

I do not live in Switzerland anymore, so I cannot do a survey, but I can tell you helicopters are used an absurd amount in Switzerland, and everyone seems fine with it. For instance I personally saw, with my own eyes, helicopters used to:

- install an AC unit on the roof of a university building

- move building material from one side of campus to the other side

- extract dead trees from a small forest with an extensive network of roads and paths

- plant trees in the middle of campus. Which lead to this fantastic exchange with my then 2 yo: "look papa, a flying tree!" "What do you mean?" "There!" "Oh, you are right. A flying tree. Do you want a banana?"

My pet theory is that given the high wages in Switzerland, it quickly becomes cheaper to rent a chopper for two hours then to get a crane built, operated and unbuilt.

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#78

Post by lotsofpulp »

izacus wrote: post #61
Logans_Run wrote: post #2

Global warming being caused in part by internal combustion engines and aviation results in less snow for skiers... Solution? Chopper some more snow in to counter the effects of I.C.E's and aviation. Huhmmmm.... Does anyone else spot a dichotomy in thinking here?

> Global warming being caused in part by internal combustion engines and aviation results in less snow for skiers... Solution? Chopper some more snow in to counter the effects of I.C.E's and aviation. Huhmmmm.... Does anyone else spot a dichotomy in thinking here? Well, they're doing it to keep their income and profits coming. A major part of it in fact - probably half the yearly income. Since you're probably from a…

> Because that's really what you're asking here - are you going to take a 50% paycut and stop using your ICE vehicle forever?

Only if everyone else does. I.e. a fossil fuel tax so high that it renders helicoptering snow for recreational activities untenable.

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#79

Post by Kon-Peki »

dashdot wrote: post #47
seanalltogether wrote: post #20

Am I right in thinking that Gstaad is like the Aspen of Switzerland, one of the richest ski resort towns? Is this why they can get away with helicoptering in snow?

There are a lot of Aspens in Switzerland. But seriously, I hope there will be consequences. Everyone in my bubble disapproves this strongly. Yes, there is not much snow. Yes, it is crippling snow tourism. But I can't imagine there are a lot of Swiss people who think that flying in snow is justified in any way.

> But I can't imagine there are a lot of Swiss people who think that flying in snow is justified in any way.

I just got back from skiing in Vail Colorado. People in Europe may object to flying snow to the mountain, but they certainly do not object to flying themselves to the snow.

In the shared gondola and lift rides, people speaking English within their groups were the minority. I am not complaining, it was a wonderful time and I really enjoyed meeting and talking to people from all over the place!

FYI - the storm systems that are flooding California are producing an epic winter for the ski resorts in the western USA. It's been at least 20 years since I've seen anything this nice! It's really not a surprise that people are coming from around the world to experience it.

Re: Switzerland: snow flown in by helicopter in attempt to keep ski slopes open

#80

Post by lscdlscd »

LeonM wrote: post #44
seanalltogether wrote: post #20

Am I right in thinking that Gstaad is like the Aspen of Switzerland, one of the richest ski resort towns? Is this why they can get away with helicoptering in snow?

Switzerland is a rich country, and just about every ski resort is outrageously expensive (think 14 euro for a beer, 35 for a pizza, 150+/night for a hotel, 50+/day slopes). So financially, they can definitely get away with helicoptering in snow. The most exclusive ones are probably St. Moritz, Zermatt and Lech, not so sure about Gstaad.

Other than the pizza and beer, I challenge you to find a ski resort in Colorado/Utah much cheaper than the prices you listed. It's crazy here in the US.

I'll be spending a week skiing in Austria next week and altogether it's cheaper than a week of skiing in Colorado.

Post reply on HN