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The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

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Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#671

Post by mwint »

satvikpendem wrote: post #644
Manuel_D wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It obviously depends on the field. But if the YouTube video explains clearly why X technique is sub par, and demonstrates the failure mode I'd believe it over a tradesperson. Say you see your mechanic tighten the nuts on your wheel hub in a circular pattern instead of a star pattern. Would you point this out?

I'm not sure about your particular example but it seems to me like this argument could be made for something like software engineering too, ie someone watches YouTube on the top web frameworks or SWE best practices and asks you why you're not doing it the way they saw. Sure, the video might show failure modes too, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's always the right way to do it, there are tradeoffs everywher…

The difference is that the SWE probably has to maintain the software.

The contractor just needs their work to fail not-before the warranty period expires.

Think of them more like foreign software contractors being paid per JIRA ticket, rather than in-house long-career developers.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#672

Post by nimbius »

UncleMeat wrote: post #33

"We need more tradespeople" seems to be an evergreen news article. My brother in law is an electrician. He is paid alright, enough to live on. But there are HUGE downsides. He does not receive health insurance. He does not get paid vacation. In order to match decent white-collar pay, he needs to work overtime. His company pushes hard to get jobs finished fast, causing people to cut safety corners. Many of his coworke…

hi, tradesworker here (IMU union diesel mechanic.) i learn and practice python and pretend i understand ai/ml on hn.

your brother in law sounds stout, and at risk of getting into a bar fight i gotta say it: it just doesnt sound like hes there yet. if he had trade certifications, state certs and experience on his own, there isnt a shop i can think of in the midwest that wouldnt offer everything the HN hacker crowd gets at a white collar interview. hell, skilled cert welders in the midwest pull down enough to pay off a new f250 in a couple of years. electricians ARE a valid and important trade, and linemen are the pornstars among their ranks. he needs to seek out a better shop too, but that goes without saying.

the progress is: work hard, get promoted to job captain or foreman, and eventually if you want start your own shop. if not you eventually wind up a shop manager or something with more pay than title.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#673

Post by tenpies »

sdiacom wrote: post #439
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> managing the people who will sell their health and body as tradesmen. A minor racket. A racket? He just became a 'wealth creator'! How dare you compare a visionary entrepreneur to a pimp!

I am once again unable to tell whether this is genuine or sarcastic capitalist bootlicking. This website has destroyed my brain.

The beauty of the ambiguity is that you know there's someone on this web site that is 100% serious and believes that all labour is capitalist exploitation.

Then there is also someone that is 100% sarcastic and that if you look at society closely, that exchange is probably one of the least exploitative in present day society. I mean we take the healthiest demographic on the planet, force them to be sedentary for 8+ hours per day, submitting themselves constantly to eye strain, and we make them pay for it. Now that's a racket.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#674

Post by AngryData »

Ancalagon wrote: post #4

Same labor shortage as everywhere that the government likes to pretend doesn't exist. 10 million working-age men can't or won't work. Of the ones willing to work, almost none want to spend their time learning skills for back-breaking, barely-middle class skills jobs which they'll be forced to retire from at 55 because their knees give out. Same answer for the shortage as everywhere that the economists don't want to h…

Yeah I grew up learning trades from my parents and neighbors and friends, worked in trades a number of years. I left the trades because it isn't worth it. The pay is not much better than working as a cashier or working in the local jail's kitchen around here. The work is inconsistent as hell both on a micro and macro level. And I am currently watching the ravages of their time in the trades on their bodies through my family and neighbors as they live with constant pain and are both literally and figuratively limping their way into retirement with not a whole lot to show for it as their compounding health issues drain most of their savings. Sadly most will never get to actually enjoy retirement, they look and feel 20+ years older than they are and can't afford to vacation or enjoy anything but the most barebones hobbies.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#675

Post by macNchz »

incongruity wrote: post #651
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing that I've learned hanging out on /r/freelance, it's that most people are not cut out to be business owners.

Seems like a startup niche - a more idealized Uber for electricians - abstract the worst parts, help tradespeople keep more of the money their work produces.

That is basically franchising, you exchange some cash upfront and ongoing royalties for a brand name and some level of support with training/business planning/marketing/leadgen/software etc. There’s a franchise for just about anything you can think of, and a surprising number local businesses in the US these days are actually franchises, not just fast food restaurants. Some are excellent and some are scams!

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#676

Post by AngryData »

megaman821 wrote: post #114
bryanlarsen wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The median income for a plumber is $50k, only 10% make above $91k. https://insights.workwave.com/industry/plumbing-electrical/p... 6-figure incomes for plumbers are rare.

Where is all the money people paying tradespeople going? If I need any plumbing work done it costs me $200 an hour or more. Even with overhead and expenses, 10 hours a week gets you more than $50k a year. Twenty years ago my grandfather was a marine plumber and made $200k a year. How many apprentices and part-time plumber are in these datasets?

To the business owners, towards tool and vehicle maintenance, to time sitting around talking to people on the phone trying to line up jobs or making bids, towards the substantial amount of material stock they need on hand, to saving money for the inevitable down turns in construction, etc.

For someone to come work in your house for 30 minutes, they have to compensate for 2-3 hours of time doing everything else.

Also it sounds like you live in a high cost of living area if you are paying that much for plumbers.

Sure there are a few good jobs plumbing new commercial construction that makes good money, but there is far more need and demand for people to crawl down into some residential crawlspace nobody else has been in for decades to fix and retrofit old garbage and clearing toilets and replacing wax rings or installing faucets or garbage disposals. Those aren't really money making jobs, especially when you have no idea what you might run into once you are down there.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#677

Post by AlwaysRock »

specialp wrote: post #669
UncleMeat wrote: post #33

"We need more tradespeople" seems to be an evergreen news article. My brother in law is an electrician. He is paid alright, enough to live on. But there are HUGE downsides. He does not receive health insurance. He does not get paid vacation. In order to match decent white-collar pay, he needs to work overtime. His company pushes hard to get jobs finished fast, causing people to cut safety corners. Many of his coworke…

There is another aspect too. It completely breaks your body. Electricians get carpal tunnel worse than information workers by constantly squeezing lineman pliers, knees get shot. Your career path is work like that and hopefully before you get older, start your own company and hire younger people to do the body breaking work. But not everyone in the field will end up doing that so many end up in bad shape

And you have to go do it. I love working behind a computer. I sit in a chair. Waking up at 5am to go to a client site to do some physical labor 40+ hours a week for my entire life sounds like hell. Even if the money was incredible it would suck.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#678

Post by AngryData »

eddsh1994 wrote: post #55
Ancalagon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing one-off projects on your own home is not equivalent to being a full time roofer or tile-layer, or even plumber or auto tech where you are constantly working on your back, hands, and knees. I have my own home too and the times I’ve done my own plumbing work were hard. And that’s one of the physically-speaking easier jobs, never mind Roofing, I wouldn’t last a week.

My uncles a roofer and did it into his 40s but eventually started his own company when he wanted to stop carrying slate around on roofs in the miserable British winters. I think that's the usual progression - you're not literally laying tiles till you're 67.

But not everyone in that business can build their own company unless every single one is an individual contractor. What about the other 80% of those trade workers who are laying tiles until retirement or their body fails them?

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#679

Post by cfors »

ryanmccullagh wrote: post #536
thedaly wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at a union plumbing company in a major metro area and union plumbers make very good money here (100k+). We aren’t losing any business to YouTube. We only do service for commercial businesses, and the house engineer isn’t going out of the way to do any more work than what is absolutely necessary. You will still need a plumber if you do a large remodel or new construction. Good on you for learning how to do more…

> and the house engineer isn’t going out of the way to do any more work than what is absolutely necessary Most contractors: Doing the absolute minimum necessary and cutting corners

As somebody that has done both contracting and worked in tech, I hope this comment makes sense.

Most homeowners (product managers) want the cheapest (fastest) thing that fixes (delivers) a working home (feature) to them. When given the options those are generally what people choose.

Sure some contractors (software engineers) always cut corners, but I believe many take pride in their work and given the option would prefer a solution they take pride in.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#680

Post by BirdBrained »

rootusrootus wrote: post #601
dr_kretyn wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had a small job recently - install vent from bathroom fan to go outside. Required getting to attic, cut a hole in the wall/roof and install vent. It was too small for most companies i called. Took me 3 month to find someone and it costed 1k cad.

One thing I've found is that you have to call the right people. As tempting as it is to get a professional in the right field, you do find pretty quickly that they don't want small jobs. For that you will be much more successful if you talk to a handyman.

And being aware of how state and local laws could affect the market. Depending on municipality, only licensed tradespeople can touch electrical and plumbing, except for the homeowner, so handymen can't help with certain things.

As an example, I wanted to have a new water heater installed and replace the improper vent. When I asked plumbers for a full quote, replacing the vent added thousands of extra dollars because I would have been paying plumber rates for it. But I was able to pull a permit and replace the water heater myself, and then hire someone much less expensive than a plumber to replace the vent.

Your mileage may vary, but there could be a few steps in a multi-step process that are significantly raising the costs because the only people you can hire by law are expensive, but are also simple and legal to do yourself.

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