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Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

economist.com

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Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#311

Post by bluGill »

AlexandrB wrote: post #247
humanistbot wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must have missed part of the huge hype bubble when Musk claimed that Teslas with FSD would be "appreciating assets" because owners would be able to rent them out as robotaxis when not using them. He said they should be worth up to $200k because of that, and also this p2p robotaxi fleet would make Uber and all taxis obsolete. If FSD was actually full self-driving, then the idea makes a lot of sense. Yes, Tesla cus…

> You must have missed part of the huge hype bubble when Musk claimed that Teslas with FSD would be "appreciating assets" because owners would be able to rent them out as robotaxis when not using them. If Musk actually believed this it was irresponsible of him to sell any cars at all since holding onto them would have yielded a better return for investors/stockholders.

Probably not actually. If you rent your car you, you also need to clean it. Musk/Tesla isn't setup to do that, and the overhead of getting setup for that type of operation means that while is a profitable small business idea it may not work out for a large company.

While there is a business in that space to be had, I'm not convinced it is very big.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#312

Post by Kirby64 »

jcfrei wrote: post #242
cainxinth wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minimalistic interiors, modern infotainment, mobile app performance None of that is why Tesla was ahead of everyone for so long. It's because their cars have better range, and Tesla is still the range leader. They held four of the top six spots in 2022, and the number one is the Lucid Air (only 3k of them have actually been sold): https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/g32634624/ev-lo... Also, I just want to…

Tesla Long Range (573km) and Mercedes EQS (566km) are basically on par. Here's a good overview by independent testers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k1DOw-NwvW8E8tQeXlac...

It might be on par in range, but it's far behind in terms of efficiency... and also much more expensive to boot. Also, comparing it against the Model 3 (which, I know, is not even the same league of 'luxury' as the EQS) it's even further behind in range/efficiency.

The only cars that get the 'A' rating on that spreadsheet are the two Model 3 cars (316 mile version, and 200ish mile one), the 62kWh Nissan Leaf (216mi), and a bunch of super low range cars where efficiency is easy, since weight is way lower.

Competitors are catching up, yes, but they're still pretty far behind in the efficiency game... which means that Tesla can produce quite a few more cars for the same amount of raw battery pack. Which drives better margins and more production capacity.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#313

Post by bbbbb5 »

darknavi wrote: post #298
wazoox wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually after having tested a couple of other cars, for instance the Renault Megane, the BMW i4 and the Mercedes EQE have better enhanced drive assistance than Tesla. For instance: * when in full-auto on a single lane road, when there's an exit on the right the Tesla 3 almost always slightly swerve towards the exit before coming back in its lane. None of the Megane, the EQE or the BMW i4 do that. * To overtake a slo…

> The mapping and charge planning on the BMW and particularly the EQE/EQS are arguably slightly superior now to Tesla Really? One of the main selling points for me is that the center screen in Teslas are actually usable, non-laggy POS like most cars these days.

It's not really surprising, the 3 big German automakers spent around 3 billion USD to buy (at least at the time) the best mapping product on the market.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#314

Post by aplummer »

darknavi wrote: post #298
wazoox wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually after having tested a couple of other cars, for instance the Renault Megane, the BMW i4 and the Mercedes EQE have better enhanced drive assistance than Tesla. For instance: * when in full-auto on a single lane road, when there's an exit on the right the Tesla 3 almost always slightly swerve towards the exit before coming back in its lane. None of the Megane, the EQE or the BMW i4 do that. * To overtake a slo…

> The mapping and charge planning on the BMW and particularly the EQE/EQS are arguably slightly superior now to Tesla Really? One of the main selling points for me is that the center screen in Teslas are actually usable, non-laggy POS like most cars these days.

I think everyone else just turns on CarPlay / Android Auto and forgets they have an infotainment system.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#315

Post by 8ytecoder »

hef19898 wrote: post #52
md_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS, yes. Retail? Nah.

Even back when I worked there in logistics, I wondered how much of AMZN share price comes from AWS and how much comes from retail. But then it is difficult, cash flow comes from retail, profits come from AWS. So Amazon might actually be both, and benefiting from it.

Amazon went from a tech company to a retail company (not including AWS). Back then e-commerce was nascent and everything Amazon did was R&D. Now their differentiator is scale and logistics. The website and related technologies are taken for granted even though we all know the complexity of it. But end of the day, it has been built and as much as it pains to admit it as an engineer, it’s “solved” - to the extent that it’s not make or break anymore.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#316

Post by pieter_mj »

l33tman wrote: post #108
tshaddox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that simple? Is there something about Tesla’s technology that enables longer ranges? Surely they just put in bigger batteries and charge more for the car, and competitors could also do that if it was really a primary competitive advantage of Teslas.

Many of the competitors are STILL building on an ICE chassis and stuff batteries where the center axle would have been etc. When enough of them finally switch to pure EV platforms things will quickly improve I guess. But designing a new chassis that behave as well as their previous premium models, is not something they do in 1 year so it makes sense there is some delay.. The competitors also charge much less quickly,…

This is a huge dealbreaker for me tbh. Tesla's competitors are mostly still using an electrified ICE platform, showing even now they're years behind. It's comparable to countries who were pioneers in broadband internet and who are now lacking in progress and falling behind, or like MS Internet explorer that totally stagnated and held back browser technology.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#317

Post by bluGill »

rootusrootus wrote: post #101
moojd wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its incumbent automakers finally ramping up the competition and putting electric vehicles on the road. Telsa has probably been overvalued for a while and needed to come back to earth but between their R&D and massive lead in charging networks I still think they have a bright future. I think the R1T is the coolest truck on the market right now and the R1S is my most desired suv but now that all of the incumbents…

I think competition is the key. 2022 was the year that we started to really see the incumbents flex their muscle and prove that they could build just as good an EV as a dedicated EV manufacturer. Combine that with their proven ability to build cars profitably and it starts to make the future of the startup manufacturers look pretty bleak. It's an extremely competitive market with a huge barrier to entry. My suspicion…

> Rivian, Lucid, and similar startups will be defunct.

I expect some will be bought out, and a brand of someone else. Some will be defunt as in bankrupt. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them survives as a small niche manufacture.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#318

Post by Animats »

Right. Tesla's problems are car-company problems. Build quality. Production backlog. Delayed new models. Repair parts stocking. Repair center operations. Cost growth. All the dull and boring stuff they have to fix, or their market cap shrinks to what their production output justifies.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#319

Post by mbesto »

darknavi wrote: post #298
wazoox wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually after having tested a couple of other cars, for instance the Renault Megane, the BMW i4 and the Mercedes EQE have better enhanced drive assistance than Tesla. For instance: * when in full-auto on a single lane road, when there's an exit on the right the Tesla 3 almost always slightly swerve towards the exit before coming back in its lane. None of the Megane, the EQE or the BMW i4 do that. * To overtake a slo…

> The mapping and charge planning on the BMW and particularly the EQE/EQS are arguably slightly superior now to Tesla Really? One of the main selling points for me is that the center screen in Teslas are actually usable, non-laggy POS like most cars these days.

Ya, anyone have a video to back this up? For all of Tesla's woes, their mapping screen is above and beyond superior to any native GPS I've ever seen.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#320

Post by recursive »

aplummer wrote: post #314
darknavi wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mapping and charge planning on the BMW and particularly the EQE/EQS are arguably slightly superior now to Tesla Really? One of the main selling points for me is that the center screen in Teslas are actually usable, non-laggy POS like most cars these days.

I think everyone else just turns on CarPlay / Android Auto and forgets they have an infotainment system.

Aside from playing music and texts, I prefer the native functions in my Ford system, over the Android Auto.
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