Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

hannahritchie.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 413 posts

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#221

Post by scotty79 »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #50
matsemann wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people shouldn't need to own a car. I don't mean that in a "self driving will save us" way. But that a personal car is parked 95% of the day. In a city huge areas are used for storing these blocks of metal not in use. More accessible car sharing could make less people feel the need to own a car.

Isn't the problem that the car's that are parked 95% of the day are all moving at the same time in the last 5%? It feels like building a carless society is a lot more deliberate effort and requires a lot more public good will than electrifying what we have. That being said, it's probably the better long term goal.

If some strain of covid crops up that's way more deadly, maybe then we'll permanently transition to not hauling our butts around to stare at computer screens anyways.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#222

Post by wpm »

samastur wrote: post #217
matsemann wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people shouldn't need to own a car. I don't mean that in a "self driving will save us" way. But that a personal car is parked 95% of the day. In a city huge areas are used for storing these blocks of metal not in use. More accessible car sharing could make less people feel the need to own a car.

I use my kitchen not more than 1.5 hours a day on average. Not to mention toilet and bathroom which I use even less. I guess we should all live in two room "apartments" and rest be communal ;) I actually agree with you about better support for car sharing, but low usage by itself is not a particularly strong argument.

"I guess we should all live in two room "apartments" and rest be communal"

Maybe not forced, but there are plenty of people for whom this setup would work fine, and has it historical precedent. Even if it's not for you or me, who cares? If some developer thinks it'll work, let them build it.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#223

Post by micromacrofoot »

jgilias wrote: post #179
micromacrofoot wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cargo ebike is a game changer for all of this. I can bring 2 kids to school and do a full grocery trip without even breaking a sweat. I do 6 miles each way and since I avoid traffic it's just as fast as driving. Plenty of people bike all 4 seasons, the Netherlands is the go-to example... it rains a lot there. Driving to work under-dressed in a heated box is a luxury that's kind of harmed a lot of people's ability t…

Good for you! My needs are: - have place for a family of four, two of which are small children; - be something I can use with said family in -15 Celsius; - Be able to be used for a 200km trip weekly with said family; I have an EV.

You don't need to bike every trip to reduce your reliance on cars! Even if you replaced solo trips in the spring and summer with a bike, for many people this ends up being a big reduction in car use... which isn't only good for the environment and your health, but reduces car wear & tear.

If you're not interested enough to invest in an ebike, an escooter is a good way to try... though it removes the exercise element and restricts you to what can be carried in a backpack.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#224

Post by hcurtiss »

wpm wrote: post #218
hcurtiss wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passenger rail in the US, like Amtrak, is spectacularly subsidized.

Amtrak is receiving $19.26B over the years of 2022 to 2026. $4.8B a year. That is an increase from the $1.7B/year it received from FY17 to FY19 The FHWA is handing out $52B in FY22. Now, you might say, oh, well, more people drive, so the FHWA is clearly a more sensible place to invest. But Americans spent $743B on their cars, including payments, interest, and insurance. It's a scam.

I wouldn't call it a scam. The subsidy per rider is, in fact, a relevant number. As others have pointed out, commuting by rail in America largely sucks, particularly in an age of COVID and rampant crime in many metro areas. In Portland a dude literally had his face and ear bitten off the other day at a light rail station. People will pay more for cars because everything about the experience is better.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#225

Post by leetcrew »

rootusrootus wrote: post #69
matsemann wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An EV is much heavier, thus you need more energy to move it. But I think in total it should still be a net win for EVs. But the real problem is that we move 2000+ kgs around to move a human of 80 kgs around. EVs don't fix that. EVs are mostly to save the car industry, the solution is to drive less by creating a society where people don't need to own a car and drive everywhere.

> An EV is much heavier The most popular EVs in the US are roughly 0-10% heavier than the comparable ICEV. Yes, some EVs are much heavier.

what vehicles are you using for this comparison? I was surprised to see that a base model 3 weighs in the same ballpark as a 330i. however, a model s weighs >500 lbs more than a 540i, and there doesn't seem to be anything in the corolla size class that's even close to 3000 lbs.

I suspect that if this is true, it's only because the most popular cars in the US are so large that the battery weight doesn't matter as much.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#226

Post by micromacrofoot »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #169
micromacrofoot wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cargo ebike is a game changer for all of this. I can bring 2 kids to school and do a full grocery trip without even breaking a sweat. I do 6 miles each way and since I avoid traffic it's just as fast as driving. Plenty of people bike all 4 seasons, the Netherlands is the go-to example... it rains a lot there. Driving to work under-dressed in a heated box is a luxury that's kind of harmed a lot of people's ability t…

>A cargo ebike is a game changer for all of this Not so long as a "never in a lifetime on average" crash remains an acceptable justification to spend tens of thousands of dollars it's not. And that's ignoring weather and convenience.

> Not so long as a "never in a lifetime on average" crash

What does this mean?

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#227

Post by wpm »

2devnull wrote: post #118
ecshafer wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that electric vehicles are a fools errand. The real winning strategy is one that overall reduces dependency on vehicles, and moves more to walking, biking, and mass transit. This would mean actually making hard decisions and having policy changes though. You lower the CO2 produced by orders of magnitude compared to even electric vehicles.

No cars for poor people. I think that’s the obvious direction we’re heading. Congestion pricing. The private jets will still fly off to Davos every spring.

As a former poor person, fine. I hated my car.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#228

Post by stcredzero »

matsemann wrote: post #139
TeeMassive wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you have a family. It has to be there when you need it. Here in Québec we had an elected official who used to preach against cars and then once she got elected bought a SUV because, like everyone else with kids, she needed it for her family. The "you shouldn't need to own a car" attitude is arrogant and authoritarian in nature.

No, the authoritarian and arrogant attitude is from those thinking it's their right to drive everywhere at whatever cost to others. And you're missing the point. Why do you need a car because of family? Think further than your own nose tip. Wouldn't it be nice with a society where you didn't have to drive to do any little chore? And the few times you needed to drive, a care from some car sharing service was available…

Most people shouldn't need to own a car.

Do you understand why making such proclamations about other's lifestyles is authoritarian?

Also, it's not so reasonable to declare others "authoritarian" because of the detection of an externality. Unless, one has nominated one's self as a superior arbiter of truth. If you are equal, then it's up to you to convince others.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#229

Post by BlueTemplar »

fowkswe wrote: post #176
rangersanger wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our suburbs are designed for cars. Our cities are retrofitted for cars. That might seem pedantic but I’m not trying to be. The point is that we do actually have significant areas of population which are ready to be reworked to prioritize cycling without completely changing the way we live. Suburbs can also prioritize safe cycling. Take a look at bentonville Arkansas. It has a tiny downtown but most of it looks and fu…

Bentonville's core is vastly different from the surrounding suburb/exurb/metro area which is mostly 0.5+ acre lots built in confined subdivisions connected via 4-8 lane arterial stroads - typical American car style suburban planning. The damage is done, retrofitting this development pattern to suit cycling over F150 throughput is just not something that will be achievable in the Bentonville, or the greater US. I live…

Eh, they will change their minds pretty quickly once they can't afford fuel for their car any more.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#230

Post by zackmorris »

imachine1980_ wrote: post #23
snarfy wrote: post #8

Sodium ion batteries work just as well and should be arriving this year [1]. [1] - https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinas-top-ev-battery-mak...

Sodium ion batteries are less dense than lithium have a third of the range, I'm live in argentine and see the destruction of open mining for rare metals for cents, make me wish this happens, but for now dense electric cars of not low range will probably use lithium and smartphones and notebook probably will continue to use lithium for long time, maybe be replaced by graphen but in the long game.

Looks like lithium ion battery density has tripled since 2010 from about 100 Wh/kg to 300 Wh/kg:

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-io...

160 Wh/kg for sodium ion would be higher than the ~105 Wh/kg LMO cathode and about in line with LCO, LMO/LNO and NMC cathodes up through 2012.

I think LMO is lithium manganese oxide, which might be the same type of battery as in my 2013 Nissan Leaf. Mine's 24 kWh, but they're up to 62 kWh now:

https://www.batterydesign.net/nissan-leaf/

They use AESC cells, which are 80% nickel with a Ni-Mn-Co mix:

https://insideevs.com/news/348513/envision-aesc-ncm-811-batt...

Perhaps better cathodes could double sodium ion battery density over the next decade?

Post reply on HN