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Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

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Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#131

Post by rootusrootus »

kkfx wrote: post #56

IMVHO > How much lithium does the world have? We don’t really know for sure. That's the simple main point. The rest are speculation. Oh, sure "not being sure" is not a reason not to try, but is a reason to have some backups. SO far we lack them. And that's the main issue. The secondary issue is recycling of metals, so far we have many experimental procedures, more or less doable at a not-just-lab scale, but nothing u…

> nothing usable on scale

There are many battery recyclers in China that grind up lithium ion batteries all day every day and recover the metals.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#132

Post by pjmlp »

bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

Sure, if one likes to enjoy cold, snow and arrive wet at work during Winter, or sharing body odors during Summertime, also assuming healthy enough to stay on a bicycles or trikes.

And yes I know plenty of people do endure weather conditions for their two wheel drive, most never will unless forced to do so.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#133

Post by matsemann »

malfist wrote: post #107
matsemann wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An EV is much heavier, thus you need more energy to move it. But I think in total it should still be a net win for EVs. But the real problem is that we move 2000+ kgs around to move a human of 80 kgs around. EVs don't fix that. EVs are mostly to save the car industry, the solution is to drive less by creating a society where people don't need to own a car and drive everywhere.

> But the real problem is that we move 2000+ kgs around to move a human of 80 kgs around. Why is that a problem? If I want to visit my friend who lives 200 miles away, I'm not going to hop on a bike, or walk, or find a horse and buggie to take me there. Vehicles are not inherently evil. In fact they're a great enabler. Even if we take your example at face value and assume nobody travels beyond their city. How is that…

How often do you travel those 200 miles? Why can't you use a car share service for that one occasion? I'm not assuming people never travels beyond their city.

Why do car enablers always use people needing a wheelchair to push their agenda? If you're so concerned with their well being, wouldn't it be better if they got the roads for themselves and didn't get stuck in traffic and could always find parking close?

Or if they didn't need a car to travel miles to a grocery store but it was next door instead?

And no, the problems with cars are much greater than their carbon footprint. What about their area footprint for parking? The insane land used for roads? All the deaths? The pollution and micro plastics from their wheels? How children can't play outside in streets? How the streets instead of a nice neighborhood is just traffic? The noise?

And no, EVs doesn't solve much about the carbon footprint, not unless the energy is all green. It just moves it around.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#134

Post by powerbroker »

dwheeler wrote: post #14

Even if we have more electric vehicles, that doesn't decarbonize anything unless the source of the energy doesn't generate carbon dioxide. In many places you're just moving the source of carbon dioxide (often with a total increase). I think that part is often overlooked.

Wind provided 25% of electricity in Texas in 2021 [1]. A decade ago, it was close to 12%. A decade from now, it will be 45-50%. Even now, by selecting only the nights with strong winds, an EV driver can tap the grid when 50% of the electricity comes from nuclear and wind turbines.

Carbon sources aren't moved. They are decommissioned.

[1] https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2021/10/13/ERCOT_Fact_Sheet...

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#135

Post by AstralStorm »

DLwdTxdU6smHQA wrote: post #105
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lithium ion is up to 265 Wh/kg and sodium ion has 160 Wh/kg This is what less dense means.

sure. but it seems one third of the range seems too pessimistic according to those numbers.

Sodium is about half the range with the older unimproved designs (new experimental ones are closer to parity with li-ion), it's better than the density number suggests because it's lower internal resistance - less steep discharge curve than li-ion.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#136

Post by pjmlp »

ldh0011 wrote: post #130
jgilias wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory. In practice the market has spoken as to what kind of a form-factor people find the most useful for personal transportation in different climates and economic development scenarios. There’s no reason why ICEs couldn’t have supported the kind of vehicles some people imagine other people need. The market has spoken, EVs only started gaining traction when they started resembling actual cars in form and functio…

I don't think it follows from the fact that most people drive (buy) cars in the US that they actually prefer it. Corporate lobbying and politics have ensured that you can't function in the vast majority of the US without a car. People in cities in Europe that support and/or prioritize bike/pedestrian traffic see many to most people preferring it. I went through childhood, uni, and the first year of my professional li…

People that live nearby city center prefer them, get a few more KM radius away and sunddenly cycling to city center is no longer so much fun.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#137

Post by AstralStorm »

amelius wrote: post #104
Communitivity wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sodium ion batteries are even better in one respect, they are not as easy to catch on fire, they do not produce the kind of fires lithium batteries do, or give off the same poisonous (and sometimes explosive) gases. It can take over 3000 gallons of water to put out a Li ion car fire (and that fire can re-ignite weeks after due to the chemicals and stored energy) [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWq-Mq1Uqpw

Here they discuss what would happen if you dump a ton of sodium in a large pool of water: https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-you-were-to-dump-... into-the-middle-of-an-ocean-sized-pool-of-water And here is a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNWTpfHovHM

Sodium sulfur battery however readily forms a sulfate salt with a hot steam explosion, which is different from sodium metal alone. Lithium battery emits lots of hydrogen gas alongside being super hot which makes for a bigger boom and hot fire that will burn underwater.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#138

Post by rangersanger »

rolenthedeep wrote: post #120
rootusrootus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't any reason people in America couldn't choose such things. They just don't. If the selling of the idea is failing, maybe the idea is the problem and not the people you're selling it to.

Our cities are designed for cars. Hell, most of our society is designed around owning a car. It is horrendously impractical in a lot of places to go without a car. Our public transit systems are largely garbage, if they exist at all. Bike lanes are extremely rare, and are really just used as free car parking. Take my commute to work for instance. It's about 3 miles, but it would be impossible to bike, as there are hu…

Our suburbs are designed for cars. Our cities are retrofitted for cars.

That might seem pedantic but I’m not trying to be. The point is that we do actually have significant areas of population which are ready to be reworked to prioritize cycling without completely changing the way we live.

Suburbs can also prioritize safe cycling. Take a look at bentonville Arkansas. It has a tiny downtown but most of it looks and functions like a suburb. They’ve made it safe for everyone to ride their bikes to commute and for pleasure. It’s not a blueprint by any means, it’s a passion project by some rich folks, but it’s proof that the suburbs can be retrofitted with a vision and will.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#139

Post by matsemann »

TeeMassive wrote: post #95
matsemann wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people shouldn't need to own a car. I don't mean that in a "self driving will save us" way. But that a personal car is parked 95% of the day. In a city huge areas are used for storing these blocks of metal not in use. More accessible car sharing could make less people feel the need to own a car.

Unless you have a family. It has to be there when you need it. Here in Québec we had an elected official who used to preach against cars and then once she got elected bought a SUV because, like everyone else with kids, she needed it for her family. The "you shouldn't need to own a car" attitude is arrogant and authoritarian in nature.

No, the authoritarian and arrogant attitude is from those thinking it's their right to drive everywhere at whatever cost to others.

And you're missing the point. Why do you need a car because of family? Think further than your own nose tip. Wouldn't it be nice with a society where you didn't have to drive to do any little chore? And the few times you needed to drive, a care from some car sharing service was available outside your apartment building?

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#140

Post by 778hbff »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #96
rootusrootus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't any reason people in America couldn't choose such things. They just don't. If the selling of the idea is failing, maybe the idea is the problem and not the people you're selling it to.

To be sure many Americans will worry about the danger of being in the smallest vehicle on the road — having to contend with SUVs, full-size pickup trucks. But just as the Japanese found a foothold in the U.S. auto market in the 70's, if there were an electric car for under $10K I suspect a lot of people would find that their fears could be somewhat tempered.

> if there were an electric car for under $10K

Somebody should make a concept car that is electric but without any electronics (apart from battery and the motors, obviously). Apart from the battery, what's expensive in a modern electric car is that you are essentially sitting in a giant smartphone with 4 wheels.

Why is that necessary? Electric motors provide the unique opportunity to create vastly simpler (and thus cheaper) cars than ICE versions. This could over-compensate for the battery costs. But seems car manufacturers fill it with more electronics. I'm sure there are market opportunities for cars that just bring you safely from A to B without having some semi-self-driving-but-not-really Twitter client on board that opens the doors with an app on your mobile. I'm fine using a key, thank you very much.

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