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Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

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Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#91

Post by CalRobert »

jgilias wrote: post #86
bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

In theory. In practice the market has spoken as to what kind of a form-factor people find the most useful for personal transportation in different climates and economic development scenarios. There’s no reason why ICEs couldn’t have supported the kind of vehicles some people imagine other people need. The market has spoken, EVs only started gaining traction when they started resembling actual cars in form and functio…

The market is profoundly distorted by single use zoning, parking minimums, density maximums, wide (and high speed) stroads, and other urban design choices that force long journeys. It's also not safe to be on an ebike surrounded by electric Hummers, F-350 super duties, and your normal "whole kindergarten class in the blind spot" Escalades.

Having just spent a week in Utrecht it's very clear that "the market" can certainly show a preference for ebikes over cars.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#92

Post by bertil »

TeeMassive wrote: post #77
bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

As I like to point out in most of these threads, not everyone live in a Californian-like climate.

Bicycles are the most common form of transport where I live in Umeå, and in the two nearest cities, Oulu and Vaasa. I’ll let you check what the weather is like today.

I’m not advocating bicycles to transport wood (the most common industry here) to the train.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#93

Post by vidarh »

TeeMassive wrote: post #77
bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

As I like to point out in most of these threads, not everyone live in a Californian-like climate.

Oslo was so littered with ebikes they had to put a limit on them and introduce a licensing system, pushing huge numbers further out.

Even if they're not as useful during winter, they're still everywhere.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#94

Post by dagw »

kuschku wrote: post #65
trabant00 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using three tons vehicles for long-distance journeys or for the transport of goods isn’t efficient: trains (and last-mile delivery on cargo bikes) are a lot more economical That sounds intuitive to me but the fact that train tickets are so expensive on long distances (more than twice than if you travel alone in a car) makes me think it's not the case.

Train tickets include track maintenace, but if you travel by car, you usually don't include road maintenance, car purchase, etc in the travel price (as they're often hidden and include many subsidies and tax breaks). Additionally, a train always costs the same amount to run, no matter the number of passengers, so in countries where trains don't see much use (like the US), they'll be much more expensive than they shou…

vast majority of their tickets (Sparpreis and Super Sparpreis) in the 9,90 / 14,90 to 49,90

If you are flexible and plan ahead. If I decide now to go visit my sister tomorrow (~4 hours by the fastest train route), want to get there not much slower than by car, and travel at a time that is convenient for me, then I'll end up paying a lot more if I go by train, even if I'm traveling alone.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#95

Post by TeeMassive »

matsemann wrote: post #36
dumbfounder wrote: post #30

Can batteries be created to make the process of reclaiming the lithium orders of magnitude easier? A completely different topic: Politics tends to focus on forcing consumer vehicles to go electric, is this really the right move? Most cars are not driven a lot in a day. But cars that are used for work (fleet, uber/deliveries) are used much more, so the benefit to them being electric is far greater. Trucks too most lik…

Most people shouldn't need to own a car. I don't mean that in a "self driving will save us" way. But that a personal car is parked 95% of the day. In a city huge areas are used for storing these blocks of metal not in use. More accessible car sharing could make less people feel the need to own a car.

Unless you have a family. It has to be there when you need it.

Here in Québec we had an elected official who used to preach against cars and then once she got elected bought a SUV because, like everyone else with kids, she needed it for her family.

The "you shouldn't need to own a car" attitude is arrogant and authoritarian in nature.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#96

Post by JKCalhoun »

rootusrootus wrote: post #78
munchler wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck selling that idea (in America, at least).

There isn't any reason people in America couldn't choose such things. They just don't. If the selling of the idea is failing, maybe the idea is the problem and not the people you're selling it to.

To be sure many Americans will worry about the danger of being in the smallest vehicle on the road — having to contend with SUVs, full-size pickup trucks.

But just as the Japanese found a foothold in the U.S. auto market in the 70's, if there were an electric car for under $10K I suspect a lot of people would find that their fears could be somewhat tempered.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#97

Post by powerbroker »

imachine1980_ wrote: post #23
snarfy wrote: post #8

Sodium ion batteries work just as well and should be arriving this year [1]. [1] - https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinas-top-ev-battery-mak...

Sodium ion batteries are less dense than lithium have a third of the range, I'm live in argentine and see the destruction of open mining for rare metals for cents, make me wish this happens, but for now dense electric cars of not low range will probably use lithium and smartphones and notebook probably will continue to use lithium for long time, maybe be replaced by graphen but in the long game.

If I'm not mistaken, aren't the Argentine mines brine-based? These aren't your typical 'pit' mines. Furthermore, isn't the location of these mines in the arid high plateau near the Andes?

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#98

Post by ssharp »

bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

The Aptera is going to cost $30,000 (more than entry-level cars) and will only seat two people. I'm not really sure the appeal over an electric bike or motorcycle for an individual given the huge gulf in cost. This is not a good solution for most people who do not earn enough to justify an expense like that, even more so given the product is new and has a higher potential for being unreliable.

There is also the problem of solving family transport, which has no good answer other than EVs. Although, for a lot of people, work-from-home has reduced their annual mileage several fold.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#99

Post by JumpCrisscross »

DLwdTxdU6smHQA wrote: post #89
imachine1980_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sodium ion batteries are less dense than lithium have a third of the range, I'm live in argentine and see the destruction of open mining for rare metals for cents, make me wish this happens, but for now dense electric cars of not low range will probably use lithium and smartphones and notebook probably will continue to use lithium for long time, maybe be replaced by graphen but in the long game.

> Sodium ion batteries are less dense than lithium have a third of the range Got a source for the "one third" part? According to [1] and [2] lithium ion is up to 265 Wh/kg and sodium ion has 160 Wh/kg. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery [2] https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/30/catl-reveals-sodium-ion... edited for clarity

> lithium ion is up to 265 Wh/kg and sodium ion has 160 Wh/kg

This is what less dense means.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#100

Post by malfist »

YPCrumble wrote: post #19
dwheeler wrote: post #14

Even if we have more electric vehicles, that doesn't decarbonize anything unless the source of the energy doesn't generate carbon dioxide. In many places you're just moving the source of carbon dioxide (often with a total increase). I think that part is often overlooked.

I find it hard to believe that pulling electricity from the grid would increase carbon emissions vs. a vehicle burning gas in its own engine. How is that possible?

It's not, GP is wrong and making a deceptive argument.

The energy grid is already lower carbon than gasoline powered ICE vehicles, especially with natural gas taking over a lot of the energy production. But it's only going to get even better as more and more renewables come online.

It's easier for your giant utility company to have the capital to build out a solar farm to power your car/house/etc than it is for you and I to have the capital to build personal solar production to do the same thing. Even more so, some things only make sense at scale, like large scale wind energy. Placing a giant turbine in my backyard, even if the HOA and city allowed it, would work for me, but not my neighbor, and if they built one too we'd be competing with each other. Better to do it on farms leased or ran by utilities.

Besides, how is the renter going to de carbonize their electric car unless the grid does it?

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