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Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

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Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There can be no such thing as a real free market. It's an inherently contradictory concept because it necessarily relies on a government strong enough to impose a private property rights regime but at the same time act against its own interests.

The initial argument was about whether or not unions could be considered a part of a true free market, and whether champions of capitalism should support their existence. Your argument is that a free market cannot exist at all, which is not exactly what the discussion is about.

The capitalist free market is something that would reasonably he understood as free markets as they exist in the real system called capitalism under which coeporations have special legal protections.

If the original commenter meant something like "ideal free market" I imagine they would use those words instead of refering specifically to capitalism's free markets.

The real system known as capitalism would collapse immediately if we did away with the special legal protections given to corporations (chief amongst them being limited liability), so I think it's a pretty fair assessment to understand these to be inherent to capitalism, even in its most libertarian possible interpretation.

Another important distinction is that there are various ways of theorising free markets which may not be compatible with capitalism either.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The initial argument was about whether or not unions could be considered a part of a true free market, and whether champions of capitalism should support their existence. Your argument is that a free market cannot exist at all, which is not exactly what the discussion is about.

The capitalist free market is something that would reasonably he understood as free markets as they exist in the real system called capitalism under which coeporations have special legal protections. If the original commenter meant something like "ideal free market" I imagine they would use those words instead of refering specifically to capitalism's free markets. The real system known as capitalism would collapse im…

They were referring to the “idea of a libertarian free market”. Such an idea would not include limited liability for corporations protected by law.

The government might enforce observing contracts agreed upon by all parties, some of which may contain limited liability for individuals or organizations. But LLC in itself would not be a legal category intended to protect corporations.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are dozens of vacant homes in US for each homeless person. The national vacancy rate is something like 10%.

In the US as a whole, sure. But the housing affordability issues aren't across the whole US: it's in specific metros. Houses in Nebraska don't solve the affordability crisis in San Francisco. Furthermore, people aren't exactly keen on letting homeless people live in their property for free. Hotels in my city experimented with this: they got small checks for housing homeless people during COVID, when lockdown massacre…

Housing affordability issues are indeed across the whole US if you include local wage rates in the equation. The middle class simply can no longer afford the same housing as they could on a single earner wage as they could when tax rates on the rich were 70%. A lot of the problem is hedge funds grabbing up huge numbers of houses across the country and then jacking up the rents using collusion through software. At a 70٪ tax rate that money to grab up so many properties wouldn't even be there.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/10/company-that-mak...

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The capitalist free market is something that would reasonably he understood as free markets as they exist in the real system called capitalism under which coeporations have special legal protections. If the original commenter meant something like "ideal free market" I imagine they would use those words instead of refering specifically to capitalism's free markets. The real system known as capitalism would collapse im…

They were referring to the “idea of a libertarian free market”. Such an idea would not include limited liability for corporations protected by law. The government might enforce observing contracts agreed upon by all parties, some of which may contain limited liability for individuals or organizations. But LLC in itself would not be a legal category intended to protect corporations.

The idea that you can at all limit your liabilities by contract is an artifice that originates in the idea of the limited liability corporation. You are not contractually allowed as an individual to limit your liabilities by mutual agreement in general because a great many rights and claims cannot be alienated by contract.

The vast majority of capitalists and libertarians have no pretence of being able to get rid of the LLC. The rest have an incoherent understanding of the situation, where you could somehow do it by mutual agreement while still having inalienable rights be a thing. Legal personhood is the only way to deal with that because you can then redirect claims and rights instead of trying to alienate them.

So you have to choose two between inalienable rights and claims, not having legal personhood, and being able to limit liability by agreement.

A simple example would be an organization which caused a personal injury by negligence. You can't alienate your right to life and health, so you can't possibly make a contractual agreement to limit such liability. If you remove the possibility to limit such liability, then who in their right mind could, for example, invest or agree to work in a hospital? How about a mine?

So the question is inevitable, and it turns out that legal privileges for groups that organise capital are necessary for practical capitalism. In the real world of course no libertarian can articulate a coherent way of either completely doing away with the concept of limiting liability or a way to do so without legal personhood and without allowing people to sign away their rights, which is why serious opposition to the concept is exceedingly fringe amongst libertarians.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incomes are generally lower, but EU residents generally have a higher standard of living than US residents according to Human Development Indexes. Life expectancy is also better, infant and maternal mortality are lower, test scores are higher, etc. This is because of the prevalence of socialism, which came about because labor broadly won in Europe. I think Europe's example makes the benefits of unions clear.

The difference in HDI between the US (0.921) and say Denmark (0.948) can be entirely explained by the fact that a large portion of the US population is a formerly enslaved minority, and an even larger portion is recent immigrants from the developing world: https://measureofamerica.org/10yearsandcounting . That has nothing to do with socialism, but historical and geographic factors unusual to the US.

Oh that was a fun read, thank you!

I don't know that it supports your claim that the HDI delta can be "entirely" (or I would even say sufficiently) explained by slavery/immigration:

- There are quite a few Asian immigrants from developing countries (in 2018 the shares were: 13% from Europe/NA, 28% Asia, 25% Latin America, 25% Mexico [0]) and their scores are literally off the charts.

- A lot of states with small Black/Latino population portions have pretty low AHDIs [1]; the bottom 3rd includes Kentucky, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Idaho, Indiana, Nebraska, Wisconsin, and Ohio. On the other hand, DC, North Carolina, and Maryland have very high Black population portions (44%, 32%, and 22% respectively) and they're ranked 5th, 19th, and 20th.

- A more parsimonious explanation of the AHDI rankings is that states with better social safety nets and more labor protections do better than those without. For example, of the 11 states that decline the ACA's Medicaid grant [2], only 2 are in the top half of AHDIs, and the remaining 9 average to rank 39.

- Europe continues to see a huge influx of refugee immigration [3]. If immigration were a part of this story you'd expect this to lower its HDI, but it doesn't. Again it seems pretty clear here that the difference is socialism.

- Just as a matter of course, the AHDI breakdowns don't disambiguate recent immigrants from subsequent generations. There's no doubt the US has a lot of immigration from Central and South America, but they aren't all new, so you can't really make the claim that recent immigration accounts for the lower AHDI amongst them.

- Inequality-adjusted HDI (IHDI) [4] would better address your criticisms because it measures the average person, thereby taking into account recent and historical disadvantages, and here we can see that aside from Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy (somewhat notorious as a grouping) Europe broadly outdoes the US.

[0]: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_America...

[2]: https://www.kff.org/health-reform/state-indicator/state-acti...

[3]: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2016/08/02/number-of-refu...

[4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequalit...

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#206

The 70s are back. We're approaching a period of strong unions, huge labor conflicts and eventually rampant inflation. At least in Europe. I've been thinking that the USA would be affected less than Europe, due to weak unions in most sectors, but it's certainly possible for unions to form.

I feel like this implication you're positing where unions and labour conflicts can only result in "rampant inflation" is untested.

It's not the unions themselves so much as the labor conflicts that can have this effect.

If a factory shuts down due to strike, it doesn't produce anything. If so, the price of whatever it would have produced goes up. Kind of like anything with chips in them when factories and supply chains were closed down during Covid.

And the problem with inflation caused by contracting supply, is that it MUST lead to reduction in aggregate consumption. But workers will typically react poorly to having to cut down consumption. Demagogues will argue that the "Fat Cat" capitalists has enough money to pay higher wages, as if more money leads to more consumer goods being produced. Still, union members tend to listen to the demagogues in time like this.

This leads to strikes, lock out, and reduction in production. Which intensifies supply side constraints and drives inflation further, leading to even more demand for raises, and so on, in a vicious circle.

This happens in a time where the West wants to repatriate strategic production from Asia, where there is a need to re-arm to meet growing security threats from China and Russia, where we're facing a huge wave of elderly that will want a massive increase in spending on healthcare and where the supply of younger working age adults is dwindling.

All these are factors that increase the demand for consumer goods and services (especially healthcare) and goods that compete with consumer good (like weapons) and where more of the goods will be built domestically (like chips).

So unless we can radically improve productivity, each person (on average) will be able to buy less than they're used to or expect.

Let's say there will be 10% less of "everything" available to consumers. Without unions, the market (and possibly government intervention) will allocate this reduction in real income relatively evenly over the population.

But it is kind of in the DNA of most unions to never accept reductions in real wages for the members. If we imagine that every worker was in a union, and everyone got a raise matching inflation from the previous year (including retired people), the new wage would still only allow the pupulation to consume the consumer goods that is actually produced. That would quickly cause prices to go up another 10%, again reducing purchasing power below what people are used to.

Now, add a few strikes into this. Let's say there is a general strike reducing economic output by 5%. This comes on top of the 10%, meaning that now 15% fewer consumer goods are available than people expect, causing prices to go up by 15% that year.

Now, if everyone tries to get back to their own level of consumption by loaning money, that's another 15% money chasing the same goods, which could lead to 30% inflation that year. To prevent that, central banks raise rates to, let's say, 15%.

As these rates enter morgage costs for middle aged people, the pain is magnified further, typically leading to more strikes, businesses going under (permanently removing them as a source of consumer goods), and so on. Unchecked, this can lead to hyperinflation.

Not that I expect it to turn out this bad. Demand is partly elastic. Some people WILL be willing to cut SOME consumption, especially if good investment opportunities open up.

Still, in a market where supply side output of consumer goods goes down by 10%, there exists a huge communication problem when trying to distribute this new reality to the population.

It can be done, though, especially during wartime, consumers may be able to understand that they simply cannot go on consuming as much as before. And if the consumers themselves understand it, the unions probably will too.

In peacetime it's harder, which we see if we look at what happened after the oil crisis in 1973, especially in the UK (where unions were very strong at the time). Labor conflict aggravated the already difficult situation, and played a part in the stagflation that would last for the rest of the decade and much of the next.

Eventually, it was brought under control, partly by new economic growth and partly by Thatcher crushing the strongest unions.

In the 1970's though, the west was in the middle of a demography-driven boom at the time, and with the boomer generation entering the labor market, growth was relatively easy to achieve.

Today, the situation is different. There are few young people to fill the jobs that retiring boomers are leaving. In Europe, the demographic development is more likely to cause economic contraction than growth. So unless something like AGI can cause a huge lift in productivity, we may actually face a long-lasting period where consumption has to stay at levels below what we're used to.

I expect it to take at least 10 years for that to sink in for most people.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incomes are generally lower, but EU residents generally have a higher standard of living than US residents according to Human Development Indexes. Life expectancy is also better, infant and maternal mortality are lower, test scores are higher, etc. This is because of the prevalence of socialism, which came about because labor broadly won in Europe. I think Europe's example makes the benefits of unions clear.

The EU has a higher quality of life. The US has a higher standard of living. Quality of life and standard of living are only loosely correlated.

The EU has both a higher quality of life and standard of living. Here's Investopedia's list of stuff [0] you'd measure for standard of living (FWIW it also mentions HDI as a good measure of standard of living, which the EU generally beats the US at, especially IHDI):

- Life expectancy

- Inflation rate

- Number of paid vacation days

- Class disparity

- Poverty rate

- Quality and affordability of housing

- Hours of work required to purchase necessities

- GDP

- Affordable access to quality healthcare

- Quality and availability of education

- Incidence of disease

- Infrastructure

- National economic growth

- Economic and political stability

- Political and religious freedom

- Environmental quality

- Climate

- Safety

Generally other than the GDP/economic growth points, the EU beats the US.

[0]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financial-theory/08/st...

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this implication you're positing where unions and labour conflicts can only result in "rampant inflation" is untested.

If anything, it seems that increased unionization lags behind inflation. Which may not be surprising as high inflation discourages saving, meaning that people are more likely to buy the things they want now to not have to pay much more later, which results in businesses increasing production to fill the increased demand, requiring more labour, and thus labour finds itself in a stronger position. As the only power uni…

> to be able to live without an income for months, if not years – in order to make it a credible threat.

That depends on what service they represent. Those who provide critical services (garbage removal, truck drivers, police, utilities, healthcare, grocery store workers) may make their absence felt very quickly. Also, anyone able to block a key element in a longer supply chain can cause a lot of damage quickly.

It's all about the ability to completely paralyze access to something essential. Let's say every employee at every data center in the US were striking belonged to the same union, and all went on strike at the same time, shutting down all hardware and staying on site to prevent anyone from turning it back on.

The effect would be instant and catastrophic. If there was no way to bring them back, society would collapse in days or hours. Most likely, the police would be used against them (like it was against factory workers in the early 1900s).

It's all about how coordinated, ruthless and willing to risk ignoring the wrath of the employers and government the unions are, as well as how much support they have from the general population.

Not that I'm expecting something this extreme anytime soon. It's more of an illustation of how powerful a strike can be, if taken to he maximum. Since around WW2, strikes have become more of a ritualistic dance, with rules for how far to take the conflict.

Such rules sometimes change, though. And the willingness to escalate conflicts seem to be on the rise.

> If anything, it seems that increased unionization lags behind inflation.

Anyway, I don't disagree that unionization and also union activity level (much of Europe is already unionized) is increased by inflation.

My point is that the labor market conflicts can ALSO cause inflation. And if something is both the cause and the effect of something, then you have a positive feedback loop.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure it’s fair if the product ends up making a boat loads of money. Games are high risk but a very lucrative industry. Just look at how successful football players were in getting a slice of the pie. I’d still consider that a dream job.

Lucrative for a select portion of games. Like music or acting, video game is a winner-take-all marketplace (or rather, winner take most ). The typical video game developer outside a well-known studio is working long hours for comparatively little pay because it's very likely the game is not going to make very many sales and there's plenty of passionate people willing to make sacrifices to work on video games. As othe…

Aren't the well-known studios also pretty big and the products they make absolutely humongous in simply the man hours? So even then there isn't that much to pay per employee.

There is some outliers, but simply most games either are not popular or even if they are they also take huge amount of labour to develop.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#210
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they are. College football gets big ratings every year with replaced players.

> College football gets big ratings every year with replaced players. We're talking about professionals. If the Chiefs could replace Patrick Mahomes and save themselves $450,000,000 without impacting their business, they would.

And how many Patrick Mahomes is there in Chiefs? Dozen? Dunno amount of players per team in not-football.
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