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Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

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Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with…

> I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to trave Ah yes. Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime, how could I forget. > Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay. Me, me, me, I, me, me. I wonder why overti…

>>Me, me, me, I, me, me.

You say that like is a bad thing. One should always look out for their own interests. I am unclear why I should not be?

>>I wonder why overtime and crazy hours are then the norm across so many industries

Well I know many documented cases where it is not "required" but the employee feels it is. As a manager I have had to prevent employees from working too much even though I have told them many times it was not required or expected they still did.

>>Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime

Not at all, and people that need those things should negotiate them. I have negotiated more vacation time for incoming employees that had that at an important item, I treat each person as an individual and what is good for one employee may not be good for another employee.

I prefer individualism

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#122
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s not to say you can’t collaborate and organize. Ive organized my coworkers to make changes before, no union involved. Informal organization (i.e. without the legal protections that formal unions have) only works in industries where the staff isn't fungible. A warehouse, fastfood chain or a lot of IT industry has the advantage for the employer that the staff is fungible. Fire everyone, pay a bit in fines for a…

Unions work best when the people need some amount of training such that you can't just hire new people, but otherwise they are inter-changeable. If you work an assembly line your pace of work is dictated by the slowest station/worker, no matter how good you are at your job you are not better than anyone else. Tech work there are ways you can be better than someone else and so unions don't work as well. (don't confuse…

> just that they don't work as well because we are not all in it together

It's one thing to say that in tech people can have different performance levels. But stuff like PTO, actually meaningful sick leave, maternity/paternity leave, retirement benefits, healthcare, workplace safety, overtime work, using people for work they have not been hired, equipped or training for - there everyone is in the same boat, but tech's aversity to unions has an effect like the infamous "crabs in a bucket" mentality.

Even wages... it's not "just" performance levels that dictate these. Unions also serve for those who are not as conflict-happy or those who cannot negotiate due to external factors (e.g. visa enslavement, they have family to take care of and can't afford the potential of being out of work for a couple weeks while they set up new employment)... unions sacrifice a bit of individual wealth for common wealth for everyone.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#123

The 70s are back. We're approaching a period of strong unions, huge labor conflicts and eventually rampant inflation. At least in Europe. I've been thinking that the USA would be affected less than Europe, due to weak unions in most sectors, but it's certainly possible for unions to form.

The 70s when one earner (even a factory worker) could still afford a house and kids and wealth gaps were way smaller? Better times for sure unless you're very rich.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Screen Actors Guild is not a traditional employment union in that your membership to SAG is not tied to your employment with given corporation. Members agree to only work with companies that have a contract with the Guild, and most members are "hired" by companies as contractors or via "loan out" companies or other such things not as w2 employees. This makes the makeup, laws, and conditions of a SAG contract FAR FAR…

The point is it's possible to have union contracts under US law where pay and title isn't based on tenure. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they can't happen.

I have never seen a competent person elected as president either, I suppose it could happen but it is not likely under our current system of laws

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way of looking at it is that unions are just as much a part of a capitalist free market as entities that organize capital. Since labor is a thing that has market value, a bunch of folks getting together to figure out how to maximize their valuable asset seems just as reasonable as folks with monetary or other assets doing the same. Unless anyone's idea of a libertarian free market is also anti-corporation, un…

This is all true, provided that membership is voluntary and such organizations get no special legal privileges.

Corporations get special legal privileges, why not unions too?

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Looking to European models would be great. Europeans on average earn half of Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_b... Software engineers make 4x or more their European counterparts If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Is it time off it optimized for? I mean tha…

Incomes are generally lower, but EU residents generally have a higher standard of living than US residents according to Human Development Indexes. Life expectancy is also better, infant and maternal mortality are lower, test scores are higher, etc. This is because of the prevalence of socialism, which came about because labor broadly won in Europe. I think Europe's example makes the benefits of unions clear.

The EU has a higher quality of life. The US has a higher standard of living. Quality of life and standard of living are only loosely correlated.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#127
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because not only is it consensual, but developers are actively sacrificing things to be in the game industry. When you have alternatives you aren't being exploited.

> When you have alternatives you aren't being exploited. That's a narrow definition. Perhaps a better definition is when the other party knows you don't have leverage and takes advantage of it, you're being exploited. Paying you little, knowing you'd work for a low wage because this is your passion? Exploitation. Horrible working conditions, wages, and abuse knowing you're an illegal immigrant with no recourse? Explo…

One of these examples is so unlike the other two that it's outrageous.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#128
I'm ambivalent about unions. In general, they sound like a good idea to me, but in practice in the USA, they seem only a step above the mob.

For example, I was browsing /r/antiwork the other day and someone received a bill from their union after they chose to leave the job. The bill demanded the payment of $200 in union dues that were unpaid from their paychecks. The commenter did not have enough money to pay

To put it bluntly... this is exploitation. The responses were that the poster had two options (1) pay the due or (2) never work in any industry for which this is the union (and some other unions may not want you if you're out of date with the other union).

People have a right to work. No private organization, profit or non-profit, should be able to prevent you from doing that. I understand why a union may take a bit off the top of a paycheck, but to demand fixed sums after quitting under threat of never being able to work in that field again? That seems exploitative. We would never let a private for-profit business get away with threatening their employees as such.

Moreover, according to other unions I've interacted with, they claim that if you don't follow union policy, they can 'expel' you from the union after you go through 'trials'. Typically, tnis is if you cross a picket line. Now, I think it's usually in one's best interest to strike if the union is striking. However, this is a free country. No one should be able to prevent you from working. No private organization should be able to put you on trial with the consequence being that, if you lose, you cannot work. While organizations can expel members, that should be the extent of their punishment. Working is a necessity to earn an income. To deprive someone of that because they're not part of your club is morally wrong.

In my opinion, if we allow for closed shops, then unions should be obligated to represent any worker there, whether they have paid any dues or not. Union dues should primarily descend from paychecks. No worker should get a bill. No one should be able to be expelled from a profession simply for not following union labor policy (and realistically, there are only a handful of reasons a janitor ought to be expelled from the profession). Unions ought to be regulated like health insurance companies and be forced to advocate for anyone working in the field.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't choose our talents nor our passions You choose your job, though. I'm not overly passionate about what I do, but do it for the stress:compensation ratio.

That's exactly my point. There are people who do the same job as you and love it. They may not even feel stress. Should they be paid less than you?

Gaming software engineers, relative to a FAANG engineer for example, are willing to work for less money, work in worse conditions due to a tradeoff for working in a field they are fanatically passionate about. It doesn't matter whether they should or should not be, it just is. That's what those engineers are willing to do. Gaming companies exploit this for profit. If you were a for-profit organization you would do the same - the market is telling you to do it. Whether that is evil or not is up for you to decide.

Same thing happens in fashion, media and entertainment.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't choose our talents nor our passions You choose your job, though. I'm not overly passionate about what I do, but do it for the stress:compensation ratio.

That's exactly my point. There are people who do the same job as you and love it. They may not even feel stress. Should they be paid less than you?

The answer is as simple as supply and demand.

If there are 200,000 devs who want to work in game dev and 4,000 roles then wages will be depressed by over-supply. This is observable in all sorts of industries, often bordering on exploitation of people who desperately want to work in a specific area and are willing to work on low/no wages to get experience.

You'll also see companies over-paying when key skills are hard to source as the natural complement.

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