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Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

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Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#111

Post by phpisthebest »

triceratops wrote: post #101
phpisthebest wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see a copy of that union contract. I have never seen a Union Contract in the US where by Pay and employment protections where not based on Seniority

Are you not familiar with the Screen Actor's Guild?

Screen Actors Guild is not a traditional employment union in that your membership to SAG is not tied to your employment with given corporation. Members agree to only work with companies that have a contract with the Guild, and most members are "hired" by companies as contractors or via "loan out" companies or other such things not as w2 employees.

This makes the makeup, laws, and conditions of a SAG contract FAR FAR FAR different then what is being talked about here

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#112

Post by dmitriid »

phpisthebest wrote: post #60
dmitriid wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Because wage is all you care for. How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? And not just for software engineers, but for everyone? > that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. That al…

>>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with…

> I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to trave

Ah yes. Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime, how could I forget.

> Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay.

Me, me, me, I, me, me.

I wonder why overtime and crazy hours are then the norm across so many industries, and parts of industries (including IT).

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#113

Post by iceflinger »

patja wrote: post #110
yakattak wrote: post #4

Game companies need this. It’s one of the “software engineering” adjacent subfields that is extremely exploited. The salaries are low, the work is stressful, crunch is high. The reason for this dangerous combo? You’re working your dream job. This is good, I hope the employees at ActivisionBlizzard can finalize their union if they’re purchased by Microsoft.

I am curious about the use of the word "adjacent" Do you think people writing game software are not software engineers?

A lot of game development roles don't involve writing software but are just as exploited, like artists and designers.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#114

Post by triceratops »

nonethewiser wrote: post #80
triceratops wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you think that's fair? We don't choose our talents nor our passions. You should get a decent share of however much value you create. How much you like your job doesn't come into it because it's random.

Because not only is it consensual, but developers are actively sacrificing things to be in the game industry. When you have alternatives you aren't being exploited.

Shrug I would hate to work in the game industry. I've made games as hobby projects. In all honesty, they're the most boring kind of programming I've done. Game testing sounds even worse.

My current work is pretty boring to other people, but I like it. Would it be right for someone in my role who hates the work to make more money?

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#115

Post by phpisthebest »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #102
phpisthebest wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History shows the result of that is often the highly productive staff exits for greener opportunities where they are not penalized for doing more than the minimum not to get fired, and over all the entire operation suffers leading to outsourcing or closing of facilities.

We wish them well! Are those greener pastures the vast majority of startups that fail? Or enormous agile, nimble enterprises I’ve heard so much about (he said with a hint of sarcasm)? Lying to others is one thing, but don’t lie to yourself. A vocal minority is best served by the status quo, and they’ll do fine as consultants. Unions to protect the majority (and the evidence very clearly demonstrates these workers nee…

Neither, I normally work for privately held companies with between 200-1000 employees and revenues between 500million and 1 billion per year

That seems to be the sweet spot to not get abused, either by management nor unions. Startups suck, Huge enterprises suck

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#116

Post by ctvo »

nonethewiser wrote: post #80
triceratops wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you think that's fair? We don't choose our talents nor our passions. You should get a decent share of however much value you create. How much you like your job doesn't come into it because it's random.

Because not only is it consensual, but developers are actively sacrificing things to be in the game industry. When you have alternatives you aren't being exploited.

> When you have alternatives you aren't being exploited.

That's a narrow definition. Perhaps a better definition is when the other party knows you don't have leverage and takes advantage of it, you're being exploited.

Paying you little, knowing you'd work for a low wage because this is your passion? Exploitation.

Horrible working conditions, wages, and abuse knowing you're an illegal immigrant with no recourse? Exploitation.

Knowing you need the job for visa purposes and asking you to come in for a 2am code review because a new CEO wants to feel like an engineer? Exploitation.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#117

Post by mypastself »

rainsford wrote: post #70
jmyeet wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Another way of looking at it is that unions are just as much a part of a capitalist free market as entities that organize capital. Since labor is a thing that has market value, a bunch of folks getting together to figure out how to maximize their valuable asset seems just as reasonable as folks with monetary or other assets doing the same. Unless anyone's idea of a libertarian free market is also anti-corporation, un…

This is all true, provided that membership is voluntary and such organizations get no special legal privileges.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#118

Post by triceratops »

phpisthebest wrote: post #111
triceratops wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you not familiar with the Screen Actor's Guild?

Screen Actors Guild is not a traditional employment union in that your membership to SAG is not tied to your employment with given corporation. Members agree to only work with companies that have a contract with the Guild, and most members are "hired" by companies as contractors or via "loan out" companies or other such things not as w2 employees. This makes the makeup, laws, and conditions of a SAG contract FAR FAR…

The point is it's possible to have union contracts under US law where pay and title isn't based on tenure. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they can't happen.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#119

Post by dmitriid »

satvikpendem wrote: post #99
dmitriid wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you end up like Europe. With long maternity leave, paid sick days, overtime pay etc.

And much lower wages, no?

What good is a high wage when you either don't have the time to use it (crazy working ours/short vacations) or still need to spend it on things like medical care?

Not everyone works at Facebook or Google.

A friend of mine works as a data analyst somewhere near Washington, D.C. They still need to spend a week arguing with insurance companies for any medical emergency. Yeah, thanks, no. Keep your higher wage.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#120

Post by dmitriid »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #106
phpisthebest wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with…

Forced vacations are usually to uncover fraud and maybe key man risk. Lots of places without unions do this.

Forced vacations are also a way to ensure that the employee doesn't burn out
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