NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#311

Post by chimeracoder » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:55 PM UTC

apendleton wrote: post #244

jwagenet wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m very much interested in this underground system (I don’t know if it is actually implemented): https://www.core77.com/posts/102208/Amsterdams-Smart-System-... It seems to me this sort of trash deposit system would greatly simplify trash collection.

Roosevelt Island (which is a part of the Manhattan borough) actually has an underground, pneumatic trash collection system: https://untappedcities.com/2020/04/09/inside-roosevelt-islan... . I think it would be hard to retrofit such a thing onto the already-built-up parts of the city though.

> I think it would be hard to retrofit such a thing onto the already-built-up parts of the city though.

It would be prohibitively expensive, because there's no master record of which pipes/wires/cables/etc. exist in any given location. It's very expensive to dig in Manhattan[0], because you basically have to dig carefully and see what's actually there, rather than having some knowledge of "the gas pipes are in this spot, so we can dig around them". So much of the infrastructure was installed before detailed record-keeping was standard practice.

As far as trash collection in NYC, the main thing that needs to happen is containerized trash collection. Right now, trash bags are just left on the sidewalks 3-5 times per week for 12 or more hours at a time, creating an absolute buffet for rodents.

[0] This actually applies to most of the city, but Manhattan is a combination of the oldest-built and most-densly-built infrastructure, so it's particularly expensive there.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#312

Post by specialp » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:55 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #194

ars wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a dedicated garage area in each apartment building NY has a lot of row houses, there's no room for a dedicated garbage area. And the alleys are not wide enough for a garbage truck. Before criticizing a place, at least understand it first.

People in row houses can't walk to the corner of the street? That's how it works in much of the Netherlands, underground bins spread over suburbia, which is like 90% row house. Works fine. I wish we had it here (still need to put my bin/bags out on the designated day).

The Netherlands has absolutely nowhere approaching the density of NYC. Even Queens has a density twice that of Amsterdam, and Manhattan 7x. If you see NYC on garbage days the streets are lined with mountains of bags. Each corner would have to have a virtual mine shaft to hold 1000s of bags of garbage.

Also contrary to movies, Manhattan has almost no alley ways either. There's no space for anything. Even when it snows in many areas they have to take the snow and dump it in the East River.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#313

Post by edgyquant » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

chitowneats wrote: post #114

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard Red Deer, Alberta make that claim.

You don't even hear people from LA or SF boast the way they do in New Yawk.

You definitely hear people from LA say this

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#314

Post by edgyquant » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

chitowneats wrote: post #290

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't even hear people from LA or SF boast the way they do in New Yawk Every borough except Staten Island is larger than San Francisco [1][2]. Manhattan together with Queens or Brooklyn is bigger than LA, the second-largest city in America. (Staten Island is about the size of Raleigh or Atlanta.) New York solves problems at a scale no other American city comes close to imagining. [1] https://www.nyc.gov/site/planni…

This is exactly what I mean. You guys have no idea how silly you sound everywhere else. I also noticed your sleight of hand. "Greatest city in the world" includes Tokyo, Paris, Seoul. All far superior to NYC in almost every way, with similar issues of scale.

Sounds to be like it’s you just having an issue with NYC

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#315

Post by kelnos » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #200

chitowneats wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even hear people from LA or SF boast the way they do in New Yawk.

> don't even hear people from LA or SF boast the way they do in New Yawk Every borough except Staten Island is larger than San Francisco [1][2]. Manhattan together with Queens or Brooklyn is bigger than LA, the second-largest city in America. (Staten Island is about the size of Raleigh or Atlanta.) New York solves problems at a scale no other American city comes close to imagining. [1] https://www.nyc.gov/site/planni…

What does the size of the city have to do with it? When thinking about "greatest city", I don't think "solving problems at scale" is one of my criteria.

I love visiting Manhattan and Brooklyn, but frankly have a hard time imagining living there. And I live in SF, which is far from being an ideal city.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#316

Post by chimeracoder » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #130

novok wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can sacrifice street parking spots systematically throughout the city for garbage dumpsters, as many others have suggested, but it's politically untenable to do so because americans love their cars, even in NYC. Another politically untenable solution is to do what Taiwan does and force people to put out their garbage in very tight time windows and otherwise store it privately in their houses and businesses, but…

It's not the parking spots - residents have zero interest in walking to the end of their block with garbage. If they tried it people would just leave their garbage on the street. Have you been in NY? There's garbage everywhere.

> It's not the parking spots - residents have zero interest in walking to the end of their block with garbage.

Nobody would have to do that. They'd have to walk an extra 10 ft from the front of their building to the curb. Unless they live in a multifamily building (which is most of the city), in which case the building superintendent would do that.

> Have you been in NY? There's garbage everywhere.

Because that's the city-sanctioned way for

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#317

Post by fatnoah » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:58 PM UTC

markstos wrote: post #304

The article says other cities use smaller vehicles for snow removal, so try that. In Canada there's been some recent success using an electric cargo bike as snow plow. I'm not suggesting that's right for New York, but maybe somthing a lot lighter than a garbage truck could work! https://electrek.co/2022/12/25/diy-e-bike-snow-plow/

I don't think the article's comparison with Denver is particularly fair. Looking at Denver's municipal website shows that they have a main fleet of 70 large plowers, and a smaller fleet of 26 4x4 plows which are used to create paths for residential streets as a smaller plow isn't really suitable for clearing large avenues and highways. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, is the type of snow that falls in Denver. As a high altitude, inland location, Denver's snow is mostly dry and fluffy, while an East Coast city like New York is often on the edge of some rain/snow border and wet and/or slushy snow is far more common (and far, far, far heavier).

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#318

Post by edgyquant » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:59 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #255

jrockway wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN's take on NYC is very confusing. Everyone has "obvious" answers to problems that residents don't even consider problematic, and oh by the way, they've never left their town of 600 people.

I remember a debate here where people were claiming how lawless NYC was for allowing people and services to double-park to load/unload. They should park in a loading zone! You must recognize the general GOP-led campaign that democratic-run places like NYC and CA are nightmares. It was Trump's theme for the 2020 GOP convention, but was overshadowed by Coronavirus. I think it spreads here too. NYC (and CA) need to take…

We also should write off real criticism as a “GOP” campaign. I live in one of their favorite cities to attack (not NYC) and they’re close to spot on

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#319

Post by chimeracoder » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:59 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #134

echlebek wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that most other major cities have garbage collection figured out in a better way. For instance in my city, garbage is kept in a dedicated garage area in each apartment building, and on a scheduled day, it's picked up either right in the building or in the alley after the caretaker moves the dumpsters there. The fact that this is considered politically untenable in New York is frankly insane, glad I don…

> in a dedicated garage area in each apartment building NY has a lot of row houses, there's no room for a dedicated garbage area. And the alleys are not wide enough for a garbage truck. Before criticizing a place, at least understand it first.

> NY has a lot of row houses, there's no room for a dedicated garbage area

Most buildings in NYC already have a dedicated garbage area. The issue is that there isn't a dedicated spot for pickup.

That's a solvable problem: put containerized trash receptacles on the street, so the superintendent can put them in the containers, instead of dropping them directly on the sidewalk (which is what they currently do).

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#320

Post by fencepost » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 10:00 PM UTC

makestuff wrote: post #192

fencepost wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garbage trucks are probably one of the best places for it actually, because they stop so frequently. Unfortunately the article is about plow trucks instead which have a very different use case - New York just happens to use the same vehicles for both so they have a smaller fleet that's not as well suited to either task. For garbage trucks you have stop and go movement so EVs eliminate idling. Given the size of the tr…

Seems like plug in hybrid is the best approach with current tech. Battery in the neighborhoods, and gas powered when you are hauling it back to the landfill.

Maybe. Others have talked about the problems with hybrids and they might not make as much sense as simply expanding either the fleet as a whole or the parts of the fleet used for plowing. Also worth considering the city's whole vehicle fleet - use the garbage trucks as appropriate for mass response, but also use dump trucks, etc from public works.

Eventually there may also be more options with battery swapping - that's a lot more feasible with a fleet within a relatively small geographic region.