NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#221

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:09 PM UTC

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #215

rsstack wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC has 30,000 streets and only a handful of days of snow in the year. By having garbage trucks that can deal with a few inches of snow, you avoid the need of buying dozens of dedicated vehicles that will rot 360 days a year.

What you are describing is overspeccing (thus over paying upfront and for maintenance) of the large fleet in order to avoid having a small fleet. Alternatively, the large fleet could be appropriately specced and the small fleet can be “mothballed” the rest of the year, thus preserving its longevity.

> large fleet I order to avoid having a small fleet

The large fleet is “2,230 general collection trucks, 275 specialized collection trucks, 450 street sweepers, 365 snowplows, 298 front end loaders, and 2,360 support vehicles” [1]. Those general collection trucks, together with the plows, constitute a circa 2,300-plow snow fleet [2].

Dedicated fleet means buying 2,000 more snowplows. There is no small fleet option.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_...

[2] https://nypost.com/2020/12/05/nyc-spent-12m-per-inch-of-snow...

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#222

Post by idiotsecant » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:09 PM UTC

edgyquant wrote: post #202

wolverine876 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why default to privately owned? Public services can be cheaper, more reliable, and you have more control than if you pay someone else to maximize their profit. NYC government has tons of experience and expertise in managing something like this.

>Public services can be cheaper No they can be subsidized with tax money. That doesn’t mean cheaper

Just like private services need to generate shareholder profits. that doesn't mean cheaper either.

Would I rather pay garbage through taxes and fees or would I rather pay garbage and private profits through fees? In general, public services treat employees better, are more accountable to elected officials (good and bad) and aren't obligated to skim an extra little bit off the top to pay someone else. There are countless examples of privatization making services less efficient in the long run, it's not an automatic win.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#223

Post by unregistereddev » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:09 PM UTC

MR4D wrote: post #193

Maybe they should just heat the streets instead. Yeah, I know, climate change. Still, kindof a neat idea if we could figure it out.

Heated driveways (and heated sidewalks) are a real thing for wealthy homeowners who do not want to clear snow. It is a neat idea, but I also find it an appalling waste of resources.

https://www.bobvila.com/articles/heated-driveway/

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#224

Post by ectopod » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

edgyquant wrote: post #202

wolverine876 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why default to privately owned? Public services can be cheaper, more reliable, and you have more control than if you pay someone else to maximize their profit. NYC government has tons of experience and expertise in managing something like this.

>Public services can be cheaper No they can be subsidized with tax money. That doesn’t mean cheaper

Public services can be as efficient as private services. And without the overhead of dividends they are cheaper.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#225

Post by tinglymintyfrsh » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

alcover wrote: post #131

rsstack wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC has 30,000 streets and only a handful of days of snow in the year. By having garbage trucks that can deal with a few inches of snow, you avoid the need of buying dozens of dedicated vehicles that will rot 360 days a year.

> only a handful of days of snow in the year I know modern economy has gone full-JIT but I naively wish we could just stop in this case and.. wait. Then this question of truck fleet would be moot.

With that luxury, sure. Emergencies happen. The garbage needs to be picked up.

Total the costs of icy sidewalk slip and falls, lost economic activity, and excess deaths (QALY) over 10 years. Spend 1/4 of that on a series of underground passageways (un)like MIT.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#226

Post by wolverine876 » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:11 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #208

wolverine876 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the second sentence? I mean, I know people don't read entire articles, but two sentences?

> Did you read the second sentence? You said a separate fleet is better “for the folks and the budget” of New York, and added a parenthetical clarifying that it isn’t the answer. I’m agreeing with the second sentence, that a separate fleet isn’t the answer. I’m also refuting the first point, that it’s better than the status quo .

Not a separate fleet, just electrifying the trucks somehow would be beneficial (depending on how that's done, of course - not with coal-fired charging stations on every block).

I'm just trying to include the factor of climate change, which does and will cost a ton.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#227

Post by tinglymintyfrsh » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:12 PM UTC

If they run a fleet, they should be swapping battery packs not waiting around for batteries to charge.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#228

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:12 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #210

jacquesm wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugly, expensive, maintenance headache. What's not to like... They are however more environmentally friendly than diesel engines and it works well if you only have a few well trafficked routes. But you can't do this for a whole city, and garbage trucks and snowplows need to go into every street, not just the main boulevards.

Agreed on all points, though I notice everyone says they are so expensive and hard to maintain, but nobody cites anything (not a criticism - I have no idea myself). However, you don't need availability on every street, just enough to charge the vehicles sufficiently for the smaller streets.

Arnhem in NL and Riga in Latvia, both cities I spend a lot of time in still have them, but I wonder for how long. They're pretty iconic but every few years there is debate about whether or not it is still worth it. Another problem I forgot to mention is that these systems are not very flexible in dealing with mishaps, you can't overtake another trolley bus so if one has a problem the whole system grinds to a halt. An ICE bus just goes around the obstacle and continues.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#229

Post by wolverine876 » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:13 PM UTC

KMag wrote: post #218

wernercd wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Might as well believe in Halley's Comet and enjoy a cool glass of koolaid. Have I just run into an Internet conspiracy theory where Halley's Comet is "what the man wants you to believe, wake up sheeple?"

Maybe they were joking:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11286314/

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#230

Post by djtriptych » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 9:13 PM UTC

This smells to me at least a little bit like union pressure to slow the transition to electric vehicles, which is just a hop from fully autonomous city vehicles, putting them all out of work forever.