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NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

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Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#201

Post by wolverine876 »

factsarelolz wrote: post #185
wolverine876 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why default to privately owned? Public services can be cheaper, more reliable, and you have more control than if you pay someone else to maximize their profit. NYC government has tons of experience and expertise in managing something like this.

NYC also has a ton of fraud perpetrated by gov employees. https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/seventeen-new-york-city... https://www.reuters.com/legal/bribery-fraud-charges-are-dism...

NYC government is huge; is that really a "ton"? Private business also has fraud.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#202

Post by edgyquant »

wolverine876 wrote: post #173
yepguy wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do they even have their own fleet of garbage trucks, though? I'm pretty sure the garbage trucks where I live are all privately owned.

Why default to privately owned? Public services can be cheaper, more reliable, and you have more control than if you pay someone else to maximize their profit. NYC government has tons of experience and expertise in managing something like this.

>Public services can be cheaper

No they can be subsidized with tax money. That doesn’t mean cheaper

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#203

Post by StanislavPetrov »

echlebek wrote: post #116
novok wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can sacrifice street parking spots systematically throughout the city for garbage dumpsters, as many others have suggested, but it's politically untenable to do so because americans love their cars, even in NYC. Another politically untenable solution is to do what Taiwan does and force people to put out their garbage in very tight time windows and otherwise store it privately in their houses and businesses, but…

The reality is that most other major cities have garbage collection figured out in a better way. For instance in my city, garbage is kept in a dedicated garage area in each apartment building, and on a scheduled day, it's picked up either right in the building or in the alley after the caretaker moves the dumpsters there. The fact that this is considered politically untenable in New York is frankly insane, glad I don…

>For instance in my city, garbage is kept in a dedicated garage area in each apartment building

Most apartment buildings in NYC don't have garages.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#204

Post by racnid »

ilamont wrote: post #155

I was thinking about vehicles that can't switch to electric power. The tech's not there yet, and may never be. Cargo ships. Jumbo jets. Military aircraft. Specialized industrial vehicles, such as those used for mines. Unless these use cases are made obsolete (possible, such as military) society will depend on fossil fuels for many decades to come.

Lots of mine & industrial vehicles are electrified. In underground mining it's attractive because the vehicle is in a very confined space (easy to run cables to) and it's doubly attractive because of the emissions issue (venting underground). It can make sense for above ground too. But for aircraft and ships you're likely correct.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#205

Post by zmgsabst »

mabbo wrote: post #127
rsstack wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC has 30,000 streets and only a handful of days of snow in the year. By having garbage trucks that can deal with a few inches of snow, you avoid the need of buying dozens of dedicated vehicles that will rot 360 days a year.

You're not wrong. I agree with you. I just see that as a better option than continuing to burn fuel in trucks that don't need it 360 days per year.

Is that just how you feel?

Or can you show the conversion saves resources even when you have to buy and maintain dozens of extra vehicles?

This seems to me like you’re making a negative decision just because you find it emotionally satisfying, without any reasonable basis to believe that it improves things.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#206

Post by unregistereddev »

dekhn wrote: post #49
hattmall wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unlikely to be a one time thing. But recurrently letting gas sit for extended periods of time could cause issues. This mostly only applies to ethanol containing fuels. This is why boats need to use 100% gas. You should do the same for a plugin hybrid if you don't cycle the tank at least every 2-3 weeks. That's all it takes to damage a boat if it sits. Cars will be better but the repeated exposure would certainly…

What does "take a toll" mean? Sorry to be difficult but people tell me a lot of things will damage my car in the long term, but I haven't been able to reproduce any of those problems yet. The only thing that damaged my car was putting too much oil in it, that caused it to fail nearly immediately, and was covered by the warranty so it was free to replace the whole engine.

Ethanol is hygroscopic. As long as you burn the fuel in a reasonable amount of time it's not a problem, but when ethanol sits over time it collects water. Next time you run your engine, it pulls water into the engine.

Now, if the engine runs long enough to fully warm up, this isn't the end of the world. Any water will turn to steam and be pushed out through the exhaust. However, if the engine only runs for a short period of time, water can sit inside of it and cause corrosion. Realistically this is only a problem if you repeatedly allow ethanol-containing fuel to sit for a long time, and also repeatedly run an ICE for very short periods of time.

It is a bigger problem for boat motors, because they operate in a wet environment already. It is also a bigger problem for carbureted engines, where fuel sits in the carburetor bowl while the engine is not running. This allows hygroscopic fuels to corrode the inside of the carburetor while the engine sits.

Ignoring ethanol, it is also true that gasoline breaks down over time. However, it typically takes many months before gasoline breaks down enough to worry. There are also additives that help stabilize gasoline for longer storage.

TL;DR in a reasonably modern-ish car, it's probably fine. In small engines like lawn mowers, it is best to either use ethanol-free gasoline or to completely drain the fuel before storing the mower for the winter. In antique cars with carburetors, it is best to use ethanol-free gasoline.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#207

Post by wolverine876 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #191
wolverine876 wrote: post #164

It's discussed elsewhere in the thread, but overehead wires seem appealing: * They solve the power availability problem * They reduce the need for batteries, reducing cost and waste from manufacturing and disposal. * They could be used for electrifying other vehicles like buses * Their ROI seems especially high in dense cities, especially NY: One overhead wire serves all the traffic on the road below. Plus, dense cit…

We’re already electrifying bus depots [1]. Trolley lines may work on major thoroughfares, but they’re a bit of an eye sore. [1] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/06/03/the-mtas-new-electric...

I agree about the eyesore. In one city I was in, I noticed that as I moved from the poor to the rich neighborhood, all the power line (not trolly lines) were on poles in the former and buried in the latter; the difference was remarkable.

I wonder if something can be embedded in the street. Obviously, a subway-style third rail would be a bad idea!

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#208

Post by JumpCrisscross »

wolverine876 wrote: post #197
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s better for the environment to build and maintain a separate fleet of occasionally-used snow plows?

Did you read the second sentence? I mean, I know people don't read entire articles, but two sentences?

> Did you read the second sentence?

You said a separate fleet is better “for the folks and the budget” of New York, and added a parenthetical clarifying that it isn’t the answer. I’m agreeing with the second sentence, that a separate fleet isn’t the answer. I’m also refuting the first point, that it’s better than the status quo.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#209

Post by hammock »

petermcneeley wrote: post #133
mabbo wrote: post #104

Why are they using garbage trucks to plow snow? Looks, I get that I'm biased being in Canada, but do they understand that you can buy dedicated vehicles for plowing snow ? They're called... snowplows. They're pretty fantastic. You need garbage trucks every day, all year. Electrify those. You need snowplows on a handful of days per year- and that number is falling thanks to climate change. So buy purpose-built snowplo…

Why have garbage trucks at all when you can have a series of tubes to transport garbage?

What is a garbage truck fleet if not a series of tubes?

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#210

Post by wolverine876 »

jacquesm wrote: post #172
wolverine876 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Caternary lines have always seemed like a good solution but there must be a good reason they aren't more popular What reason?

Ugly, expensive, maintenance headache. What's not to like... They are however more environmentally friendly than diesel engines and it works well if you only have a few well trafficked routes. But you can't do this for a whole city, and garbage trucks and snowplows need to go into every street, not just the main boulevards.

Agreed on all points, though I notice everyone says they are so expensive and hard to maintain, but nobody cites anything (not a criticism - I have no idea myself).

However, you don't need availability on every street, just enough to charge the vehicles sufficiently for the smaller streets.

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