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NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

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Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#211

Post by notinfuriated »

ericmay wrote: post #46
legitster wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

???? Or we can just electrify applications that currently make sense and work from there as the technology improves.

Instead of just being argumentative you should read my original post and the post I responded to.

Yeah, I don't understand this pattern of comment-making on the internet. For whatever reason, your comment was downvoted slightly so then you got targeted by people over and over again, even in subsequent replies, with the least generous interpretation of every comment made. I suspect your initial comment also triggered a reaction in saying "it's not a big deal", to which a bunch of people thought, "Oh yeah, well it's a real big deal actually!" despite this being a single article about a very specific situation in NYC, something HN readers will forget about in less than two weeks.

I do not see the point in downvotes on this site. It seems like any slightly political article/discussion results in this sort of behavior.

Sorry for the meta comment.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#212

Post by Panzer04 »

unregistereddev wrote: post #176
mabbo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plugin hybrids have the worst of both options as well as the best. They have to carry with them an entire gas engine, plus large electric motors, plus a huge battery. That's a lot of mass. This makes them inefficient as gas vehicles, and less efficient as EVs. Take a look at the Toyota Prius Prime, considered a great PHEV. It's got almost the same gas milage in combined city/highway driving as my 2012 Honda Civic (ar…

I'm a bit confused by your numbers, and I suspect we may be mixing multiple units of measure (maybe due to different definitions of gallon?). The 2021 Prius Prime is rated at 53mpg highway. Let's assume that is optimistic and it gets 50mpg. Its fuel tank holds 11.4 gallons, but you don't want to run it dry - let's say 10 gallons are usable. That is a 500-mile (~800km) range after the battery is dead. At 75mph, that r…

Weight is not that important for highway driving especially, where the vast majority of resistance comes from air and not rolling resistance. It’s mostly bad for ICE stop and go, where you have to get the whole car moving again from a dead stop repeatedly.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#213

Post by jstarfish »

opwieurposiu wrote: post #54
dekhn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, exactly how long can I go between running the ICE engine before... something(?) happens to my gas and engine?

You want to run an engine once a month or so to keep all the internal parts protected from rust by a thin film of oil. It is best to let it heat up all the way to drive out as much moisture as possible. Internal rusting is a big issue on airplanes that do not get flown often enough. The first thing to go are the cam shafts. https://www.aviationpros.com/home/article/10387461/corrosion...

> It is best to let it heat up all the way to drive out as much moisture as possible.

> Internal rusting is a big issue on airplanes that do not get flown often enough.

I was always told to take the car for an actual drive (including a highway stretch) to achieve these ends, otherwise the moisture you're expelling accumulates in the exhaust system.

Looking around the neighborhood, I assume the people with the rusted-out mufflers are the ones that just let it idle.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#214

Post by JumpCrisscross »

wolverine876 wrote: post #207
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re already electrifying bus depots [1]. Trolley lines may work on major thoroughfares, but they’re a bit of an eye sore. [1] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/06/03/the-mtas-new-electric...

I agree about the eyesore. In one city I was in, I noticed that as I moved from the poor to the rich neighborhood, all the power line (not trolly lines) were on poles in the former and buried in the latter; the difference was remarkable. I wonder if something can be embedded in the street. Obviously, a subway-style third rail would be a bad idea!

Unsure how Seattle solves this, but it also complicates tree maintenance.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#215

Post by lowbloodsugar »

rsstack wrote: post #110
mabbo wrote: post #104

Why are they using garbage trucks to plow snow? Looks, I get that I'm biased being in Canada, but do they understand that you can buy dedicated vehicles for plowing snow ? They're called... snowplows. They're pretty fantastic. You need garbage trucks every day, all year. Electrify those. You need snowplows on a handful of days per year- and that number is falling thanks to climate change. So buy purpose-built snowplo…

NYC has 30,000 streets and only a handful of days of snow in the year. By having garbage trucks that can deal with a few inches of snow, you avoid the need of buying dozens of dedicated vehicles that will rot 360 days a year.

What you are describing is overspeccing (thus over paying upfront and for maintenance) of the large fleet in order to avoid having a small fleet.

Alternatively, the large fleet could be appropriately specced and the small fleet can be “mothballed” the rest of the year, thus preserving its longevity.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#216

Post by wolverine876 »

kkfx wrote: post #140
hourago wrote: post #115

The "Elektromote", the world's first trolleybus,[6] in Berlin, Germany, 1882. Maybe New York is lacking the infrastructure, but the technology has existed for a long time. A trolleybus may be expensive to implement in rural areas but in the biggest city in the USA it should be quite cost effective. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromote - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus

That's a nice point for some aspects: we have (had) all over the world trolleybus of various kinds, those on rails have some co-existence with cars and asphalts issues (like slippery passages for bikes, complex ops when the asphalt need to be re-do etc) but beside that have worked HYPER well for decades. Those on tires have proven to be full of issues to a point most who have had them have given up. I see so far no f…

Trolley rails seem carefully designed to be deathtraps for bicycles, as if someone looked up bicycle wheel widths and depths, grip on varius surfaces, etc., then tested iteration to come up with the rails. Still, if it reduces carbon output, I'm all for it.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#217

Post by ilamont »

racnid wrote: post #204
ilamont wrote: post #155

I was thinking about vehicles that can't switch to electric power. The tech's not there yet, and may never be. Cargo ships. Jumbo jets. Military aircraft. Specialized industrial vehicles, such as those used for mines. Unless these use cases are made obsolete (possible, such as military) society will depend on fossil fuels for many decades to come.

Lots of mine & industrial vehicles are electrified. In underground mining it's attractive because the vehicle is in a very confined space (easy to run cables to) and it's doubly attractive because of the emissions issue (venting underground). It can make sense for above ground too. But for aircraft and ships you're likely correct.

I was thinking more of the giant open-pit mining excavators and trucks. However, I see that people are attempting to bring EVs to this market:

The mining industry is in a full swing transition towards a low environmental impact mode of operation, and its key players are working to phase out diesel vehicles, which are responsible for significant greenhouse gas emissions and generate high operating costs. Currently, there are no electric-powered heavy-duty trucks on the market that meet the difficult operational and climate needs of open-pit mines. Faced with the industry’s new needs, IVI, Propulsion and the NRC brought together select partners to make the first-ever electric heavy-duty vehicle for the mining sector.

To ensure the success of this major project, Fournier et Fils, a recognized operator in the mining sector, will provide the project with a Western Star 6900XD truck with a 40-ton loading capacity, as well as its technical experts, who will assist the electrification experts in converting the truck to accommodate the new components. The motorization aspects will be developed by Dana TM4, a world leader in electric motors.

https://www.danatm4.com/news-events/a-first-for-canadas-open...

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#218

Post by KMag »

wernercd wrote: post #188
wolverine876 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better for those folks and the budget, both of which will feel the full impact of climate change. (But I don't think a separate fleet is the answer.)

[flagged]

> Might as well believe in Halley's Comet and enjoy a cool glass of koolaid.

Have I just run into an Internet conspiracy theory where Halley's Comet is "what the man wants you to believe, wake up sheeple?"

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#219

Post by ben7799 »

unregistereddev wrote: post #176
mabbo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plugin hybrids have the worst of both options as well as the best. They have to carry with them an entire gas engine, plus large electric motors, plus a huge battery. That's a lot of mass. This makes them inefficient as gas vehicles, and less efficient as EVs. Take a look at the Toyota Prius Prime, considered a great PHEV. It's got almost the same gas milage in combined city/highway driving as my 2012 Honda Civic (ar…

I'm a bit confused by your numbers, and I suspect we may be mixing multiple units of measure (maybe due to different definitions of gallon?). The 2021 Prius Prime is rated at 53mpg highway. Let's assume that is optimistic and it gets 50mpg. Its fuel tank holds 11.4 gallons, but you don't want to run it dry - let's say 10 gallons are usable. That is a 500-mile (~800km) range after the battery is dead. At 75mph, that r…

The new Prius is probably larger & faster and meets more safety & emissions standards as well.

And it will get much better fuel economy than the Civic as soon as traffic gets bad or some city driving is required.

Picking highway MPG cherry picks the solution that makes the Hybrid or EV look the worst compared to the traditional ICE car.

Not that the Civic is/was a bad car. But all cars are a lot bigger and safer than they were, so it's almost always cherry picking to go back and take an example of an old fuel efficient car. A lot of those old cars could not pass modern emissions or safety testing, they got their good fuel economy by being a) Slow b) Light. A big part of light was not having extra mass for safety or emissions. On top of all that the mileage ratings for cars have also changed, so you can't even directly compare the ratings for an old civic with a new one.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#220

Post by [deleted] »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #174
wolverine876 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better for those folks and the budget, both of which will feel the full impact of climate change. (But I don't think a separate fleet is the answer.)

It’s better for the environment to build and maintain a separate fleet of occasionally-used snow plows?

[deleted]
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