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Men Without Work (2016)

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Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#361

Post by pnf »

mint2 wrote: post #344
pnf wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are all real people but masculinity means changing your own tires unless old or otherwise enfeebled. Otherwise being a man or a woman means nothing but chromosome delivery mechanisms.

Want the brain surgeon operating on your loved one with his hands later in the day to change his own tire in the snow on the way to the hospital or do you want him to call aaa? Btw the lug nuts are stuck and will need substantial persuading. And it’s on the side of a busy road. Seems extreme to think that guy should change his own tire.

If he's a surgeon or a pianist he gets a pass. The exceptions that prove the rule.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#362

Post by smileysteve »

mint2 wrote: post #344
pnf wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are all real people but masculinity means changing your own tires unless old or otherwise enfeebled. Otherwise being a man or a woman means nothing but chromosome delivery mechanisms.

Want the brain surgeon operating on your loved one with his hands later in the day to change his own tire in the snow on the way to the hospital or do you want him to call aaa? Btw the lug nuts are stuck and will need substantial persuading. And it’s on the side of a busy road. Seems extreme to think that guy should change his own tire.

The lugnuts wouldn't be tight because the precision as a brain surgeon would lead him to using a torque wrench last time he rotated his wheels, and of course there should be a set of gloves with the spare tire.

And that's to assume he would have a flat; as if he doesn't check his tires regulary.

~ a software engineer with a set of gloves, a manual air pump, full size spare, and extra flashlight in his 18 year old car.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#363

Post by bsuvc »

WhiteBlueSkies wrote: post #347
lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

>As a middle aged man strangers I meet expect the worst from me, why should I try? Is there something in your appearance which intimidates people?

Would you ask this of a woman?

Why do you assume there is something wrong with OP's appearance, and that it is OP's fault if someone doesn't like how he looks? Because he is a man?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#364

Post by anon291 »

lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

'Society' isn't a homogeneous thing. You describe common American society, but there are both subcultures in America as well as foreign cultures, who may or may not have the problem you describe.

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism? Women finally have work equality and so men don't have to work as hard anymore.

That stops working the moment young men from a subculture or from a foreign culture decide to work hard at taking over your society.

This isn't a moral judgement, or even a warning, just an analysis of what happens historically.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#365

Post by 20after4 »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #249
xg15 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men's rights are human rights. They are father's rights. They are worker rights. It means equal protection under the law, protection from rape and violence, protection from discrimination and threats. These are basic human rights that should be afforded to everyone. This should not be a zero-sum game: to give one group rights you should not take them away from another group! There are plenty of rights to go around…

> E.g., I haven't yet seen a feminist sub on reddit excuse a female rapist They don't have to, society already does this for them all the time. Pay attention to how media frames the crime when a female teacher sleeps with an underage male student versus when a male teacher rapes an underaged female student. My word choices are deliberate here. In a vast majority of headlines and articles I've seen, if the perpetrator…

South park's take on this is a classic: https://southpark.cc.com/video-clips/9lb529/south-park-nice

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#366

Post by anon291 »

xg15 wrote: post #322
lordfrito wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. We can pat ourselves on the back about changing gender roles, but the fact remains that when a man loses his job his chance of divorce goes way up. [1] Personally I think trying to reprogram humans to fight biology is a lost cause. But people keep trying. [1] https://time.com/4425061/unemployment-divorce-men-women/

I mean, we're making pretty good progress with gene editing and understanding how the brain works on a neurological level. If biology is the problem, we might have an actual chance to solve this :)

That's great. Many of us humans want to live in human society. What you're describing is a non-human society. If you're actually changing the genetics, it doesn't make sense to consider us the same species at that point. That's like dogs and wolves.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#367

Post by anon291 »

xg15 wrote: post #312
lordfrito wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about the social contract. Which is largely culturally dependent. Society may have never cared about young men, but (as someone else said here) the old contract with men here was build and fight wars and monogamy is enforced most will get the opportunity to raise their own family. As I get older I realize that evolution is less about me and my DNA and more about the cultural DNA of civilization. There's indi…

Yeah no, that's social darwinism. If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. I also don't quite get what exactly you're criticizing. Life has become too easy, which somehow in turn makes life unbearably hard for young men, so they rightfully escape and…

> If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive.

Broadly speaking, this is true. The west's recent turn to progressivism is new. Formerly, we shared many moral values with Muslims and conservative Hindus. Together, these constitute the large bulk of the world populace.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#368

Post by anon291 »

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #270
lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism? I understand this is a passing remark, but I want to answer the question anyway. Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. Men supporting and…

> In a lot of countries, the cultural norm is for men to be strong, independent and self-sufficient and not to seek help or support from others, especially other men

This is one of the most bold-faced lies of all times. As evidence against it, I'd point out to you gentlemen's clubs (the real kind, not strip joints) and fraternal organizations such as the Knights of Columbus. These are large, powerful institutions started usually by men to benefit exclusively or almost exclusively men, and to promote fraternity.

In these places, men could go to deal with their problems with other men, and not women.

Women today often complain that men put their problems on women. This ignores the fact that feminism is often the main driving force behind forcing these organizations to accept females, and thus a prime cause of men no longer having a space to discuss problems with other men.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#369

Post by qwerpy »

lordfrito wrote: post #331
xg15 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah no, that's social darwinism. If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. I also don't quite get what exactly you're criticizing. Life has become too easy, which somehow in turn makes life unbearably hard for young men, so they rightfully escape and…

I'm for sure not criticizing Social Darwinism, just making an observation that those forces are at work here and will eventually judge the fitness of the cultural changes we're making. I do think that the western version of extreme individualism and sexual liberation has led to a fracturing of our American/western family structure. Combined with great abundance which has enabled us to transition from a culture that p…

I have to say I really appreciate you taking the time to put all these thoughts down into words. As a father it captures a lot of what I'm feeling these days. People are quick to attach moralistic judgments onto facts and statistics, but all I care about is what kind of society my kids will grow up in and how I can help them have good lives. Our society does not seem to be incentivizing good behavior or rewarding people who "play by the rules". It seems like a recipe for long-term failure. So should I still teach my kids to play by the rules? Or do I encourage them to do what it takes to win in this new, non-meritocratic world?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#370

Post by anon291 »

epups wrote: post #262
lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is no…

> But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life?

Realistically, most people with power are not satisfied. True satisfaction is in feeling you are a valued member of the community, whether a janitor or a real estate magnate or corporate CEO of a tech company.

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