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Men Without Work (2016)

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Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#301

Post by pnf »

lazide wrote: post #287
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they decided to check out en-masse They are literally forbidden to leave the country (only men, 18-60yo, with some exceptions [0]). It's not men choosing not to check-out, it's literally men being forced to die for a piece of land they might not even care for. [0] https://visitukraine.today/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-ca...

It is society trying to protect and sustain itself. And frankly, what other options are there?

What do you mean by "society"? Just a collection of people with a common law? Or is it something more? If it's something more like a culture, then changes may be so drastic as to destroy the old culture from inside. In which case, what exactly is being defended?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#302

Post by lazide »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #293
lazide wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is society trying to protect and sustain itself. And frankly, what other options are there?

> And frankly, what other options are there? Say "fuck it", let the politicians fight it by themselves, survive, and wave the whatever flag is the winning one in the end. Or let the volunteers fight, preferably in open fields somewhere. Who cares, it's just some lines on the map. If you're bothered by those, you can can still volunteer.

So every Ukrainian should bail because ‘politicians’ and ‘lines’, give up their heritage, their friends and neighbors, and any wealth and property they can’t carry, and hope they make it over another line (defended by people who actually give a damn), before they get shot for existing?

Sounds like it would work for a very small subset of the population, and screw (and likely kill) most everyone else.

1) why should anyone else Ukrainian be okay with that, let alone enable it?

2) the reason cowardice is so frowned upon is the wonton selfishness gets a lot of others killed. Brothers, sisters, daughters, sons, parents.

If someone is entangled with society, society is going to entangle with them. And anyone who doesn’t like that, is going to find out pretty quickly what the consequences are.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#303

Post by lazide »

pnf wrote: post #301
lazide wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is society trying to protect and sustain itself. And frankly, what other options are there?

What do you mean by "society"? Just a collection of people with a common law? Or is it something more? If it's something more like a culture, then changes may be so drastic as to destroy the old culture from inside. In which case, what exactly is being defended?

Good question, with a billion answers.

Practically, it includes the folks entangled with others under a specific label, under the putative control of an entity which is able to exercise a degree of control over them and others using that label. Usually in strong physical vicinity, but not always.

Practically, a lot of us exist in multiple societies. All with benefits, expectations, costs, and penalties.

One clear cut and straightforward example of course being something like a Professional Engineer, or a member of the Bar somewhere.

But Church for those who go is almost always one. Every country has at least one, with many subdivisions, etc.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#304

Post by pnf »

lazide wrote: post #303
pnf wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "society"? Just a collection of people with a common law? Or is it something more? If it's something more like a culture, then changes may be so drastic as to destroy the old culture from inside. In which case, what exactly is being defended?

Good question, with a billion answers. Practically, it includes the folks entangled with others under a specific label, under the putative control of an entity which is able to exercise a degree of control over them and others using that label. Usually in strong physical vicinity, but not always. Practically, a lot of us exist in multiple societies. All with benefits, expectations, costs, and penalties. One clear cut…

Are any of those the sense in which you were using it?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#305

Post by rkeene2 »

nradov wrote: post #300
scottLobster wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist i…

The US unemployment rate is 3.7%. Even the fuck-ups can get a job if they want one.

Keep in mind that this number does not include people who are not looking for work, for example people who have given up looking for work because they have not been able to find a job.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#306

Post by nradov »

ianai wrote: post #165
fullshark wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society (meaning gov't programs) doesn't care about you beyond your economic output. We offshored countless unskilled labor jobs that men would traditionally take in America and told them they needed to take out crippling loans in order to get knowledge worker skills that our industry is working overtime to make obsolete within 5-10 years anyway. Many just are giving up, they don't see an opportunity here, they just…

Actually, society varies. But social contract theory does point out that the contract goes both ways. And that society works, in the interest of self sustenance, by making the individual lives better than they would be outside of society. Otherwise a society won’t last long or diminish with time. Progress could be as simple as introducing or better funding employment programs. It’d clearly really help if there was so…

The Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes data on current and predicted future labor market opportunities.

https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/occupations-most-job-growth.h...

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#307

Post by lordfrito »

fxtentacle wrote: post #257
lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practi…

It's all about the social contract. Which is largely culturally dependent. Society may have never cared about young men, but (as someone else said here) the old contract with men here was build and fight wars and monogamy is enforced most will get the opportunity to raise their own family.

As I get older I realize that evolution is less about me and my DNA and more about the cultural DNA of civilization. There's individual nature, there's cultural nurture, and they combine at scale to create what we call civilization. Man may be a magnificent machine, but that pales in comparison to the complexities and intricacies of civilization as a whole.

I marvel that every ~80 years the entire planet is simply handed to and managed by a whole new group of humans. Not just that, but the transition is handled with almost seamless continuity. It boggles the mind.

What is civilization as a whole? Merely a bunch of different cultures, competing for resources to breed, and passing on different values to their offspring, and combining with other cultures to form new combinations and mutations.

I believe in survival of the fittest culture is what drives civilization. Few cultures are successful, and those that are don't stay that way forever. Turning the pages of history we see great cultures rise and fall. The best parts of our culture will be absorbed by others, some will be lost to time.

It's not a question of "will the west fall?" it's a question of "when and how will the west fall?". The times are a changin'. They've always been a changin'.

Ascribing to this worldview, I posit that the cultures that are the most fit long term are the ones that have the best/happiest productive outcome for everyone across society, and encourage/reward breeding and family building to ensure continuity.

If true, then cultures that don't value productive young men (and women!) will find themselves conquered or outbred by those that do. As someone mentioned here, Ukraine is going to stand or fall on the backs of it's young soldiers. We are watching the turning of history. edit: I'm not saying only men need to be valued, but that the cultural value of men is what is being discussed here.

The rise and fall of cultures is a good thing for civilization on the whole.

DNA doesn't care about your happiness, it just wants to make more humans. Happiness has to be pursued on your own time. It was never really about us to begin with.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#308

Post by yterdy »

notwokeno wrote: post #196
blahblah1234567 wrote: post #53

I think "Men Without Work" is a euphemism. The problem is: - Men without Skills in-demand-- skills which are at least somewhat fulfilling & interesting to those men. Solution: Research labor data for careers in high demand, then cross reference those careers with skills a person is interested in. Then identify resources & a roadmap for learning those skills. And sit down, and put the time in to learn & apply those sk…

/g/ is full of intelligent people who could easily do what I do every day at work and are still unemployed. It's not a lack of skills. Getting a job (especially your first) is a lot of work. In some ways IMO it's more work than what you would be payed to do. Once you get payed what do you do with the money? You spend it to participate in society. Except most of our social institutions are gone anyway. Marriage (the l…

I imagine that we would disagree mightily on quite a few things, but this I do feel is mostly accurate. I think a key and missing component of the way American society is structured is a real way for people to (for lack of a better term) upskill and make a way for themselves, with dignity, without requiring outside help. There are some who manage it, even marginalized folk, but with the caveat that they made some sort of major, risky sacrifice ("Yeah, I lived in my car why studying"), or else had access to a support network ("Thank you so much for subscribing, I'm opening commissions tomorrow!").

This is part of why things like (for example, and bear with me) the failure of single-payer healthcare was such a blow. It would have been a way to end a huge factor in why people are tied to the dysfunction of the current structure, of course, but there was also a hidden loss: so many people continue to be unable to access mental health care. With the transformation of the system in Obama's first term, might we have created a crucial nexus and resource for young people and their concerns to have met and been heard by older generations? A way, in particular, for young men to embrace guided reasoning through their desires for life in a society where traditional paths had broken down? For the people observing this unpacking of hopes and lived experience to, perhaps, find the wherewithal to parlay and make way? Maybe. Instead we got Gamergate and the toxicity of contemporary social media culture, abject failures as balms for even the ills they try to address.

Of course, this is just one link in a long chain of missteps that lead us to where we are. To expand on your statement: it's not something that can be fixed by fiddling with the money supply because it's not something that started merely with poorly-conceived monetary policy.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#309

Post by lordfrito »

pnf wrote: post #296
Karawebnetwork wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism? I understand this is a passing remark, but I want to answer the question anyway. Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. Men supporting and…

[flagged]

If Asimov had his way, then AI will rule us by using chatGPT to constructively humor us us while politely letting us win every argument.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#310

Post by ajsnigrutin »

lazide wrote: post #302
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And frankly, what other options are there? Say "fuck it", let the politicians fight it by themselves, survive, and wave the whatever flag is the winning one in the end. Or let the volunteers fight, preferably in open fields somewhere. Who cares, it's just some lines on the map. If you're bothered by those, you can can still volunteer.

So every Ukrainian should bail because ‘politicians’ and ‘lines’, give up their heritage, their friends and neighbors, and any wealth and property they can’t carry, and hope they make it over another line (defended by people who actually give a damn), before they get shot for existing? Sounds like it would work for a very small subset of the population, and screw (and likely kill) most everyone else. 1) why should an…

You're still allowed to fight and go to war... just don't force ME to die for some lines on paper. Yes, I'll gladly take whatever I have and leave instead of dying in a pointless war. Or stay under a new country. And you're free to die for your country if you want.
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