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The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

thomasprosser.substack.com

21–30 of 59 posts

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#21
One could develop mechanisms, that make the ability to compromise and negotiate outcomes, a requisite to holding offices, even after elections. This could for example happen, by the small minority parties (who are usually filtered out in most democracies) negotiating the voices they represent to another party that will enter representation, in return for representing a certain view-point.

This would prevent votes from being lost and would make the ability to compromise and "secure" these votes more important then populist behavior.

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#22
post #15

> When public firework displays take positions on controversial issues, they provoke partisan reactions, poisoning debate further and turning aggrieved groups away from public spaces. Is support for Ukraine a controversial issue in the UK? In the US, support for Ukraine is pretty widespread.

Ukraine is widely supported vs Russia but I guess he’s saying that just because it’s popular doesn’t make the point morally correct in the context of what he’s saying. The LGBTQ+ is currently controversial in the context of the erosion of women only spaces and rights in the face of certain pressure groups.

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#23
post #4

The sad part of all of this is that the folks pushing the polarization in the U.S., the Trumpy right, and the progressive left, represent an extreme minority of the population. If either of these two groups had an any level of self awareness, they'd realize that no one wants them around.

I don't think it's normal people pushing the polarization, at least not in the root cause analysis. The political parties are playing the meta-political game of continuing to exist and the game theory there is to slice and dice the electorate along advantageous lines in every voting district/region. The more divisive an issue, the more predictable and reliable as a tool for staying in power.

Political parties have no external goals; they are self-interested and use the people within them to achieve that goal by offering carrots (which result in fulfilling the external values of normal people) or sticks (which punish defection or opposing party members).

Progressivism and conservativism are not opposed on a single axis. Political parties lay claim to and label particular issues which benefits both major U.S. parties in the long run by giving them each a grab bag of issues for a particular set of voters. This is why, for example, guns and wombs have opposite signs in the personal-freedom axis for both parties. As long as the shared belief exists that an issue "belongs" to "one side" it remains useful as a political tool but nearly worthless as a policy tool for normal people.

Finally, it is not the extremes leading this charge. The core DNC and RNC execute this strategy because they are locked in a struggle for survival. The DNC and RNC have successfully used the threat of the least-aligned party to trap moderate and progressive voters within the party structures. Non-partisan primaries and ranked-choice/runoff voting are starting to show moderate success (AK and NH) at changing the game theory to favor politicians who compromise on multivariate issues versus enforcing party platforms.

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#24
post #15

> When public firework displays take positions on controversial issues, they provoke partisan reactions, poisoning debate further and turning aggrieved groups away from public spaces. Is support for Ukraine a controversial issue in the UK? In the US, support for Ukraine is pretty widespread.

According to Ipsos (Oct '22), "6 in 10 support Britain’s response to the conflict" and "7 in 10 continue to support economic sanctions against Russia - but some evidence support could wane if there are further energy price rises"

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-continues-support-britain...

Personally I wouldn't say support for Ukraine is controversial here in the UK.

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#25
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the US had an equivalent of lib dems and/or proportional representation and/or ranked choice, would it still be so polarised? Sure, a 2-party state is preferable to a 1-party state, but that's a pretty low bar. Lagniappe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Warren#Election

> If the US had an equivalent of lib dems and/or proportional representation and/or ranked choice, would it still be so polarised I don't think this would be a panacea, but it would definitely help things quite a bit. The largest voting block in the U.S. isn't Democrats or Republicans, but voters that have chosen not to be affiliated with either party.

There are plenty of voters who are registered independent/unaffiliated, but most of them still lean strongly toward one of the major parties. The number of consistent swing/split voters is much smaller. Most analysis/commentary I've seen says that partisan differences in turnout are a much bigger factor in winning elections than appealing to the center.

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#26
post #8
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because they are liberal only by name not concept. Liberalism is based on tolerance and civil society as the space of freedom.

> Yes, because they are liberal only by name not concept. Liberalism is based on tolerance and civil society as the space of freedom. Exactly. We tend to conflate "left" with "liberalism" because historically in the West these two things have gone together. However, they don't have to, and in recent years they have decoupled. The left (at least in the U.S.) has became increasingly illiberal to the point where they no…

In Europe, left was always more marxist so liberalism never really got batched with the left, it was more center/right. But in the US liberalism was as left as you got, so naturally all left will be 'liberalism' at least by name no matter how the content mutates.

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#27
Sorry, but this article is 90% word salad and the other 10% seems to be saying things that most people would disagree with but in the most indirect language possible.

I'm not against using precise words when they are helpful. But sometimes I see people using complex language to obfuscate the message instead of clarifying it, and as far as I can tell that's what is happening here.

When the meaning of an essay is confused and unclear, either a) I'm just not smart enough to understand it or b) the author is a poor communicator. B is much, much more common.

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#28
post #17
post #7

As a member of one of the minorities whose rights campaigns Prosser cites as ruining his footie, I'll say, apropos nothing, that it's much easier to talk about these issues with detached neutrality when you & your friends are not subject to monotonically increasing levels of stochastic domestic terrorism.

Sounds like you need to get new friends. We are all dealing with crap, we are all at the bottom of the pile getting the dregs from trickle down economic theory. It's not about one tiny fringe group, when we fight only for ever more specific fringe groups we ignore the injustice we are all subjected to.

We're all subject to injustice and can and absolutely find solidarity within that.

It's also true that injustice and danger is not evenly distributed, and it's shitty and dismissive to pretend that it is. Far right extremist violence against queer people is absolutely a thing and it has been increasing for several years now, for example. How many of your friends have been killed violently by extremists in the last two years? If it's zero you maybe should just stfu about the injustice we're all subject to, in this context.

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#29
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

since every issue apparently has two quite defined and non-overlapping 'sides', what is a moderate? someone who chooses Ala-carte?

A moderate has more to do with a mindset and epistemological stance than it does with specific views. A moderate, regardless of where they stand on a particular issue, will ask themselves "What if I'm wrong?", or "Wow this issue is very complicated, I'm not 100% certain on the answer". Extremists, by contrast, tend to be absolutely certain of whatever opinion they happen to hold at the moment and nothing can shake th…

This is just the "enlightened centrism" theory I think. There's no inherent virtue in neutrality between abstract issues. And acknowledging uncertainty or being flexible to reevaluation doesn't necessarily lead you to neutrality either.

You're also trying to frame it so that anyone who does consistently choose a side is inherently an extremist, and that these two extremes are "liberal" and "conservative."

The idea that political extremes are more similar to each other than to a moderate position is called horseshoe theory, and it has very little support among political scientists. It doesn't even apply in this case because, again, the two "sides" in american politics aren't even opposite extremes. In most peer countries the democrats would be solidly center-right and the republicans are off to their right. On the far left is a gaping hole where communists, anarcho-syndicalists, revolutionary socialists etc would be.

In practice people who call themselves moderate are usually consistently aligned with one of the two major parties, they just don't want to incur the social costs of that alignment in at least one context. Or and relatedly, they want to present themselves as being morally and intellectually superior to both, too "enlightened" to be duped into taking sides like inferior thinkers.

There's nothing wrong with understanding yourself and your world well enough to pick a side on an issue, or find allies for it. Again the self-questioning you describe isn't unique to centrists nor the reason for their centrism.

My positions are extreme, as are those of many of my friends and associates. We doubt too. Yet we find that we must act anyway, and risk being wrong or foolish.

Re: The politicization of society is damaging liberal democracy

#30
post #14

A lot of well meaning people are seriously damaging the country by injecting politics into spheres that the public broadly needs to perceive as “neutral” such as law and medicine. This is usually accompanied by efforts to reframe contentious policy debates as “non-political.” Which of course makes no sense because lots of things that aren’t political in the abstract quickly become political when it comes to people ad…

In case anybody misses your point, I'd like to add on to it by pointing to some scary changes at the American Bar Association - https://pacificlegal.org/american-bar-associations-equity-st... and American Medial Association - https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-rel... among many others.

It doesn't appear that this is a fixable problem now.

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