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Men Without Work (2016)

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Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#231

Post by ianai »

ericmcer wrote: post #204
scottLobster wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist i…

Do you think this is a social change or a change in the reality of workers leverage? You seem to be implying that corporations used to give people jobs because it was the right thing to do, but now they are more selfish. I think laborers just don't have much leverage anymore. Domestic workers losing leverage isn't a huge surprise given that the last 30 years have been about globalization.

Globalization is only part of it. Lots of things beyond globalization have titled power away from labor. Look at the locomotive labor unions being blocked from striking by the president and congress last month for a recent, egregious example.

The courts, too, largely moved towards corporation rights over workers rights/needs.

Probably too minimum wages are below the market clearing levels in most places. This evidenced by places seeing an increase in the number of employed when minimum wage increased.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#232

Post by dbingham »

yucky wrote: post #206
dbingham wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a spectrum from Libertarian Free Market to State Socialism. There are many other forms of economic system. Capitalism isn't even synonymous with free markets. Capitalism just speaks to who gets to own the businesses (those with the capital). There are alternatives other than "the state". Worker cooperatives exist and are perfectly functional and successful. Which means one economic system that isn't oft…

> Worker cooperatives exist and are perfectly functional and successful. Which means one economic system that isn't often spoken about might be described as "Free Market Socialism", in which businesses are governed democratically by their workers in a free market. Yes, in capitalism. We have worker coops, there is absolutely nothing in capitalism that prevents or restricts them.

Right, the fact that they are successful in Capitalism presents the possibility of building the entire economy around them. It would be a free market of independent businesses, but those businesses would be governed by the workers involved in them. Financing would happen through loans and crowdfunding, rather than equity. This economic system wouldn't be Capitalism, but it would be a Free Market. It would involve "social control of the means or production", in this case through the workers, so you could call it "Free Market Socialism", and it doesn't fit on the typical spectrum people imagine that goes from Free Market Capitalism to State Socialism.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#233

Post by Beltalowda »

afavour wrote: post #74
javajosh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in theory I'd like and participate in the "men's rights" subreddit, in reality it's a pit of toxicity. Indeed, but so is the equivalent feminism subreddit (try "r/askafeminist" for example). And yet "women's rights" don't have the same stigma as "men's rights". What explains this asymmetry? Why is it some movements get defined by their extremists, and others don't? >: a lot of this societal pressure against men bein…

I’d argue that women’s rights, from Suffragettes on, has a widely documented history of… reasonableness, for want of a better term. Men’s Rights doesn’t yet. It’s a much newer movement, things may change. But right now I’m struggling to think of the sane, sensible organisations out there promoting men’s rights. I’d also question whether /r/askfeminists is “the equivalent”. It has 100k followers, /r/twoxchromosomes ha…

There have been plenty of nutjob feminists out there; "feminism" is very broad and there is a wide range of variety in viewpoints. Many of these viewpoints are reasonable. Others ... not so much.

A few years ago I tried to bring up this issue in the comments section of a paywalled (and fairly small) magazine where I voiced the view that we should move a little bit "beyond feminism" and look more towards gender relations and have a more "holistic" view on things, rather than look only from a female perspective. Not that there's anything wrong with feminism, but you know, it's just one side.

In the next article my comment was cited to "demonstrate" that men still had a lot to learn with some disparaging and condescending text.

Not the first nor last time I've seen something similar happen. Yes, you can have the occasional constructive discourse on a small scale (such as HN), but bringing the topic to the forefront in the mainstream is difficult, especially as a man. When you do succeed it captures attention for 5 minutes and then we move on and nothing really happens.

So ... I gave up. I don't really talk about it much. Why bother? It's like screaming in a void.

So what are we left with then if many of the reasonable people have given up? The nutjobs. And now it's even harder to bring these issues up.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#234

Post by lazide »

whatshisface wrote: post #192
JKCalhoun wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however). I think you become truly actualized only when you decide what it is you want, what you imagine for yourself. If what you want is in conflict with what society wants of you, you have to decide then whether it is important enough to you to take…

There's a basic human need to be valued by others and to be part of a community, and the system we have now grades people according to traits that are mainly genetic and casts them aside if they aren't seen as desirable enough. As for what the cut is, well, it's many-faceted, but the waterline is rising and as you age all of your desirable traits are fading. If you have real personal relationships (either career or f…

When has that ever NOT been the case?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#235

Post by lazide »

hatefulmoron wrote: post #217
JKCalhoun wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however). I think you become truly actualized only when you decide what it is you want, what you imagine for yourself. If what you want is in conflict with what society wants of you, you have to decide then whether it is important enough to you to take…

> I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you I have grown to believe over time that this is true, and that most people are willing to throw away unsuccessful or unlucky others using this reasoning. It's depressing, but also frees you from feeling any particular obligation to society. If society doesn't either provide you with what you need or a means to achieve it, I recommend that you cheat,…

Be aware, that then opens you up to being directly attacked by, and not just ignored, by society.

And society has lots of fangs, in that sense.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#236

Post by lazide »

luckylion wrote: post #213
JKCalhoun wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however). I think you become truly actualized only when you decide what it is you want, what you imagine for yourself. If what you want is in conflict with what society wants of you, you have to decide then whether it is important enough to you to take…

> I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you It somewhat stops being a society if it says to some members "whether you live or die is irrelevant to me, I will not care either way". That's what some people experience at least some of the time. There's a social contract. Is it still binding you if society doesn't hold up its end?

If society feels like it wants it to, it’s hard to evade the various means of enforcement society has created and funded for the purpose.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#237

Post by lazide »

vagrantJin wrote: post #227
lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I think most societies throughout history have had the same intuition about young men. Quite recently the Ukraine was drafting young men. If they decided to check out en-masse, there would be no country called Ukraine anymore. Society is a fragile thing.

Looking at the rawest biological elements - a society without women of child bearing age having kids, won’t be a society very long (a few decades, usually).

A society without someone fighting and dying to defend it, can go until someone tries to conquer it - then it can be dead almost instantly without enough people willing to fight, kill, and die defending it.

Both of those are real problems.

Fighting doesn’t have to be 100% men. But if you draw out a population distribution of various useful attributes (mental, physical, etc.), most men are built for it, and will do it naturally and unprompted, and most women are not.

And when you look at what even modern fighting looks like, 99% of the women (and most of the men) are going to be trying to run the other direction.

And like in Ukraine, without folks standing, fighting, and dying, not only would Ukraine no longer exist, but the cancer of conquest that would eat anything and everything it can, would just get stronger. And eventually devour everything if left unchecked.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#238

Post by broken_mind »

chowells wrote: post #105
Clent wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some men's right subreddits that do not have allow the self-pity but they do not make it to the front page. I will not share specific subreddits for the sanity of the moderators but they are out there that focus on men's mental health specifically. Toxic Masculinity is men on men hate.

"Toxic Masculinity" is an idea created by men's groups [1] to describe the stresses on them that make them unhealthy and come from some cultural ideal of manhood. It was literally created by men as language to separate discussion the good parts of societal expectations from the damaging parts. A large number of people (that is, everyone who wants to talk about it sincerely) still use precisely that meaning. It's only…

It's irrelevant how the term was born. It's relevant how it ia used now: and it's never used in good faith. Can you tell me part of masculinity that are not toxic, based on modern feminist thought?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#239

Post by P_I_Staker »

Mezzie wrote: post #68
ianai wrote: post #2

In lieu of any particular review I’m submitting the Wikipedia page. I was unemployed for most of the Great Recession and can empathize with much of this book. I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Despite a math degree and IT/programming experience. Then the myriad people I’ve interacted with in the last decade plus who are in this situation. Luckily I no…

> I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Female, but same hat and I empathize. In my case, I'm a lesbian who ended up with MS, so like with your average straight guy, my worth in society is pretty much based on my work life/career. I also share the jealousy a lot of straight men have for straight/bi women being more able to 'opt out'. It's not a rational f…

Definitely don't look to the mental health system for help. It's designed from the ground up to use people like resources, mine them for all their value, and discard them (after some insults).

I really feel for people with mental health issues and no insurance. I have insurance, but have somehow still payed thousands of dollars out of pocket, and in far worse shape.

It's like they're TRYING to get people with ADHD to kill themselves. You can find countless accounts of people traumatized by this system, but they don't want to change a thing... they seem to think it's our problem just for existing. I was told to just give up on my career... nevermind that it will never matter, and the next job will just fuck me up.

I can't really put into words the rage I feel against Doctors and Psychs... this is who they expect us to go to for help.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#240

Post by broken_mind »

afavour wrote: post #104
ZGDUwpqEWpUZ wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, you believe the Global Boyhood Initiative, who published that report, are an extreme minority, and are accusing me of a fallacy because of that? Fascinating. This is exactly the sort of half-baked lie I was talking about. Edit: At some point, rubber has to meet road. Either you accept that boys falling behind in education is an issue, or you don't. If you don't accept it as an issue, then you cannot simu…

You added that after I replied. To be honest your entire tone here is an example of really unproductive online conversation, I don't have any interest in participating in it (this whole thread is dead because the "purple haired feminist" parent comment was flagged anyway)

Of course you don't.
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