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Men Without Work (2016)

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Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#181
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the minority that historically was doing the oppressing? Is it so difficult to realize those oppressors are dead and these men weren’t alive in 1920?

[flagged]

Please check out the Vox article linked by the other poster. I want to preface with saying I’m pro choice. But are you really going to argue the 5 men and 1 woman that vote to affirm Dobbs is representative of the nation? People (including me) have been complaining about how the court hasn’t had a majority blue nomination since the 50s even though the political pendulum has swung multiple times since then. And grouping every male into the ruling .01% is not a good faith argument.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#182
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i know exactly what you mean. I remember an early doc appointment with my wife she was pregnant with our first child, the doctor was going over things with my wife like what she should be doing and what she should not be doing etc. I asked the doctor what i should be doing and what i should look out for, she just glared at me and said "you've done enough." implying i was only there to get my wife pregnant. That was 1…

Medically speaking, what did you expect a pregnancy doctor to tell someone who wasn't pregnant?

Presumably they know what things that the patient would benefit from external help with. That kind of advice is pretty standard in the medical world.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#183
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fascinating question because we're in a transitionary period. Like my mother, who is very much alive and still working, was 100% a victim of sexism: She was alive in and grew up in times where she couldn't have a credit card or mortgage, when jobs were sex-segregated, and wasn't allowed to go to college to be an engineer like her brother because she was raised to stay at home and pop out babies. (She bailed…

What makes that super weird for me is the inheritance by gender. I get reparations, e.g. for enslaving people. In its simplest form, you break it down to "should have been paid instead" and make that a claim that can be inherited. There are arguments about collective guilt and claims against collectives etc, but that's a second step. But women aren't an ethnic group. Children are pretty much a 50/50 split between mal…

I agree that reparations make no sense for sex based oppression historically. The only/main type of reparations I might agree with is something like extra social security for women of an age where they were legally prevented from earning more. (You can't turn around and tell a 65+ year old woman she should have chosen a higher earning career if you didn't let her). Or providing state support to child brides (I'd also support this for minor males married to of age females).

Then again, I think reparations in general are a terrible idea.

It's just interesting because our society is moving so quickly that you have some people alive who genuinely were personally oppressed and some in the same group who weren't.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#184
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this exact experience as well. Returning to my career was strange. People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation. Women are increasingly treated this way too though. Women were shunned for choosing their career. Now if they choose family, their career still suffer…

> Women were shunned for choosing their career in my experience raising two kids women are much more looked down on for choosing family over career. My wife wanted to be a stay-at-home mom but many of her friends, and especially online, thought she was "too good for that" with some even being hostile to the very concept. If a woman has an established career and then chooses to be a stay-at-home mom she's likely to pa…

> women are much more looked down on for choosing family over career

I don't doubt this at all, at least in certain circles. I suspect it's not limited to small circles, either. My wife's office culture is somewhat accepting of women leaving to raise families, but many of the women in management have totally forgone that option or have/had their kids in daycare very, very early on. I'm certainly not judging as I have no idea why, or what would necessitate that, or if it's necessarily good or bad. It's too complicated to judge in any meaningful way.

It certainly generates expectations and pressures though, and they're very harmful to people like my wife. Many of the women my wife has talked to feel distinctly anxious about managing their family life with women like that in charge. Further, many of the men in management are quite old and tend to think of leaving to raise a family as a distinct lack of commitment to the work – something which gets you excluded from "serious" work like field deployments where high reliability and commitment is considered crucial to the role.

Many women are already excluded from much of field work because some older dudes think women aren't strong enough to make the work safe. For example, under-water installations of equipment are almost exclusively performed by men because the men running the deployments believe a woman would be incapable of supporting a man if his safety was compromised. As such, the women on the team who want to progress need to fully commit in all other possible ways in order to appear viable. Leaving to have kids is essentially 3 strikes at once against your reputation in field work.

It's tough to watch.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entirely serious. It’s short to keep it to a point and so some nuance is missing, but there you have it. I don’t mind the flagging - I don’t expect anything more from people unwilling to take a look at things objectively.

I didn't flag it, but I am not even remotely surprised that it was. You have an incredibly toxic, misogynistic, and incel-based worldview that is very unhealthy. Virtually every ill you stated was the fault of women, even consumerism and violence. How many women were mass shooters again? Started wars? It is frightening that you really think that way, and I worry for those in your orbit after hearing that you are enti…

You have to look at it from a certain perspective. It’s not just misogynist. It’s also misandrist. I don’t just blame women, I blame the men for failing to uphold society to a higher moral standard and letting petty things like envy, greed, and selfishness take over them, at which point a woman can easily further manipulate them to do their bidding. Our increasingly decadent society wouldn’t be so if men realized they hold the keys to building and maintaining prosperous societies, and can refuse the corrupt inclinations of women hellbent on ruining it all for materialistic, personal gain. And that of other men who desire power and money and materialistic things for the sad approval of women.

The reason why I don’t mind the flagging and the downvotes is because I don’t expect a single individual on HN to publicly agree with me. Anecdotally and privately, women and men have both echoed these things to me in a slightly more nuanced, forgiving tone. My take is more brazen, and unpalatable for this site and many others.

Personally, I don’t subscribe to the manosphere, MRAs, MGTOWs, the Andrew Tates or anyone inbetween. These are all symptoms of a societal illness.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#186
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their problem is that they refuse to put together a well formatted resume, apply to jobs, and accept that they may have to start at the bottom of the career ladder. I see this a lot. Younger people who have been led to believe by incendiary reddit and twitter rants that everyone lived like some Leave it to Beaver sitcom in the near past and they should be able to own a house and support a family at 19 on a McDonald…

In Beaver’s time, the best paying jobs were not available to the global majority.

True, and even among white suburban middle-class people the depiction was often unrealistic.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#187
post #26

Since the Wikipedia article is so bare, I'm concerned that this discussion will mainly be a vibes-based shouting match based on the title. In hopes of averting that, some meatier content: A piece from the book's author: https://time.com/4504004/men-without-work/ Some reviews and discussions: https://www.nybooks.com/online/2016/09/15/americas-lost-work... https://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/10/11/13176948/labor-forc...…

Great, I've changed from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Without_Work_(book) to that first article. Thanks!

Wikipedia submissions are good when there isn't a substantive article out there, but not good when they're just a generic summary of what can be explored more specifically in other places. Past explanations about this: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#188
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that hard to understand the difference between a historically oppressed minority and the minority that historically was doing the oppressing?

> the minority that historically was doing the oppressing? Is it so difficult to realize those oppressors are dead and these men weren’t alive in 1920?

Who killed all the gamergaters?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#189
post #68
post #2

In lieu of any particular review I’m submitting the Wikipedia page. I was unemployed for most of the Great Recession and can empathize with much of this book. I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Despite a math degree and IT/programming experience. Then the myriad people I’ve interacted with in the last decade plus who are in this situation. Luckily I no…

> I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Female, but same hat and I empathize. In my case, I'm a lesbian who ended up with MS, so like with your average straight guy, my worth in society is pretty much based on my work life/career. I also share the jealousy a lot of straight men have for straight/bi women being more able to 'opt out'. It's not a rational f…

What is MS? Masters degree? Microsoft?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#190
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Female, but same hat and I empathize. In my case, I'm a lesbian who ended up with MS, so like with your average straight guy, my worth in society is pretty much based on my work life/career. I also share the jealousy a lot of straight men have for straight/bi women being more able to 'opt out'. It's not a rational f…

What is MS? Masters degree? Microsoft?

Multiple Sclerosis, I think
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