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How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

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Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, MSIX is very different to MSI and ClickOnce was primarily a way to bootstrap MSIs from the web. MSI (long since deprecated) is essentially an ad-hoc relational database serialized to a file with embedded blobs that tells a generic engine how to install files and update the registry. It was written for Office in the 90s and was therefore dominated by the retail model of physically shipping CDs. MSIX is a…

> MSI (long since deprecated) Is it really deprecated? Isn't MSI still the only installer type directly supported by Group Policy? My company had an enterprise customer request an MSI for that reason.

MSIX supports group policy and other admin features:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/group-policy-...

MSI isn't being developed any further and according to MS, the MSIX format is their "deployment technology moving forward".

https://mcpmag.com/articles/2018/08/09/microsoft-msix-replac...

MSIX is relatively new. The customers who requested an MSI may simply not know about it.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, MSIX is very different to MSI and ClickOnce was primarily a way to bootstrap MSIs from the web. MSI (long since deprecated) is essentially an ad-hoc relational database serialized to a file with embedded blobs that tells a generic engine how to install files and update the registry. It was written for Office in the 90s and was therefore dominated by the retail model of physically shipping CDs. MSIX is a…

MSIX is interesting but effectively unusable outside the Store (I spent a few months of my life trying to do that at $PREVIOUS_JOB). Installation will fail on a high percentage of machines, and you'll mostly be out of luck. There's a reason nobody at Microsoft uses it for installation outside the Store (Office did for a while but they gave up).

There are some bad bugs in older Windows versions, but we were always able to diagnose and work around them. It's part of the value Conveyor provides. We have it working now and the results are pretty good: fast installs and uninstalls (as long as there isn't a lot of latency to the web server), especially if you already have the files locally, background or check-on-start updates, management from the CLI, group policy, MSIX Hero and so on.

The alternatives are also not that great. I looked at many. Some are buggy, some are abandoned, some require complex server-side logic etc. The situation on Windows is far from ideal; it speaks to the general neglect of the platform. Nonetheless with a tool that works around or 'polyfills' issues MSIX can work well.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#353
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All Linux users have known that forever... Also you can email a command to copy and paste into a terminal, try emailing a procedure like "open app X, click button Y, type Z in field W..."

Some of the people I work with don’t understand cmd/posh syntax. Additionally they are often working with air gapped systems, so copy paste is not really an option. Those 2 things make it really difficult to have someone do something by cli only, especially if it’s relatively complex command (pipes, regex, vars)

[deleted]

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#354

Funny how the more the screenshots go back in history, the more 'useful' the UI looks like (even though they no longer adhere to the current fashion fad - which should actually be handled through a user-accessible themeing engine, no need to pay some UI designers big bucks to come up with rounded corners). For instance right in the first Task Manager screenshot, I have no clue what those tab icons on the left side ac…

> o need to pay some UI designers big bucks to come up with rounded corners). It’s really unfortunate how dismissive of the entire ui design profession so much of HN is. Not a great look IMO

UI design is trending in a bad direction. UIs are being designed as some sort of modern art piece rather than a tool that is designed to be used by humans.

My favorite example is VS Code vs Rider.

VS code looks like a toy. A big stack of unlabeled vage icons that require a decade of context to intuit. Compiling your program takes three clicks and a context switch away from your code! Unless you're a normal person who hasn't memorized those icons, and then it's six or seven clicks while you fumble through the menus.

Rider is a classic ugly UI. everything has labels or tooltips. There's a goddamn toolbar with all your common controls. Building your code requires one single click.

Not a single person is going to stare at your landing page like it's a genuine Picasso. Your ui is not going to be placed in the museum of modern art.

A UI is a tool. If someone has to ask you how to use it, it's not very good. If your users are fumbling through menus after the first hour, it's a bad design. If a user has to have the documentation open at all times to decode your hieroglyphic icons, it's a bad design.

As for my own UI design, the core philosophy is first-order accessibility. If you have to do a task every time you open the program, then that task is accessible with one or zero clicks. If a user asks me what a button does, it gets a better label or a helpful tooltip as well as a mention in the docs. My UIs look like something out of windows 95: simple controls laid out in a grid in clearly delineated functional groups. Everything is labeled and laid out in a way that places the most common controls in VERY OBVIOUS and CONVENIENT locations. It's ugly because it's designed to be used and not looked at.

If a user spends time in my program that isn't related to the task they're doing, I've done something wrong. If someone has to ask me how to do something, it means I have to rethink my design. If users are relying on documentation to navigate my program, I need to redesign.

I respect ui designers who build helpful and useful UIs. I don't respect designers who drop all text and sprinkle a dozen abstract images on a vast barren wasteland of screen space.

ETA: I'm an engineer and I build engineer style UIs: brutal in their simplicity, and utilitarian above all else. Literally not one person who will ever use my programs will care that it's ugly so long as it works.

At some point we've lost the idea that programs should be useful more than they are "pretty". It's a trend that I find frankly abhorrent, and I believe it's one of the major factors that's making software as an entire field worse and not better.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#355
post #221

The single most "oh, Microsoft " moment I had when updating to Windows 11 is actually glossed over in this article without comment. Context menus are restyled, and also now have a "show more options" entry[1] -- if you press it, what happens? The pre-Windows-11 context menu appears. That's right. There's archeological layers of UI design in context menus now. [1] https://ntdotdev.files.wordpress.com/2022/12/image-4.p…

That, among other things in Win11, was one of the last big pushes that got me to start using Linux full time. It's clear Windows isn't headed towards some bright future. Just more and more layers of shit on top of last gen. Like they can't actually finish anything. Just a katamari of code.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#356
post #221

The single most "oh, Microsoft " moment I had when updating to Windows 11 is actually glossed over in this article without comment. Context menus are restyled, and also now have a "show more options" entry[1] -- if you press it, what happens? The pre-Windows-11 context menu appears. That's right. There's archeological layers of UI design in context menus now. [1] https://ntdotdev.files.wordpress.com/2022/12/image-4.p…

This is utter insanity.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#357
post #11

I have a bit of a perfectionistic tendency to 'start over' things over and over and do them again as perfectly as possible; the Windows side of MS feels like a corporate embodiment of this habit. They've done this sort of thing with app installers(setup.exe, click once, appv, msi, msix) and UI frameworks(win32, mfc, wpf, winui 2, winui 3). It's like the teams responsible for their respective product keep starting ove…

In fairness, MSIX is very different to MSI and ClickOnce was primarily a way to bootstrap MSIs from the web. MSI (long since deprecated) is essentially an ad-hoc relational database serialized to a file with embedded blobs that tells a generic engine how to install files and update the registry. It was written for Office in the 90s and was therefore dominated by the retail model of physically shipping CDs. MSIX is a…

In my experience MSIX is the typical MS Windows project where it sounds really cool and looks well documented and supported until you actually try to use it. If you're on the beaten path, like a mobile app port for the windows store, it's probably fine. But if you're trying to do anything out of the ordinary you have to start doing Microsoft archaeology to figure out why something doesn't work.

For example certain build configurations would cause the runtime runtime to be somehow slightly different from the build runtime and it would trigger control flow integrity to immediately kill the app on startup which was very difficult to debug.

Also from documentation it looks like it's possible to install a background service and communicate with it over a named pipe from another application in the same package but in practice I don't think it's actually possible, even in a full trust app.

I think the goals of MSIX and the App SDK are good and I applaud them trying to make it flexible to support every kind of app, it just hasn't had the time or resources put in to be really worthwhile over just using NSIS at present.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did it so long ago, so I’m not quite sure it was this. A quick google gave me this: https://windowsreport.com/windows-11-right-click-show-all-op... There are a few things out there, but I always trust a good ol’ registry hack over a 3rd party exe.

Thank you so much for this. I never even thought to look for a way to change it back, I thought I was stuck with this annoyance forever.

Going forward, when I hear the critique that Linux "has too many things to customize," I am going to point people at these comments. I am so glad that I got off this rollercoaster.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#359
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just looks, there are real features missing from the new control panel activities too, and I don't look forward to the day the old ones are removed. For example, to disable a network adapter, you have to go into the Vista/7 version of Network settings so you can right click it and get the context menu. It's a mess!

ncpa.cpl forever baby

I'm a inetcpl.cpl man myself

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are exactly confusing UX and UI. Usability--what you are describing--is the UX or user experience, buttons colors composition affordance is the UI, connecting the buttons to the REST endpoints is frontend, servicing the REST endpoints is backend, making sure the backend is running and so is the gateway is devops. At least that's what it has been for 20+ years.

You're correct. For example, if you're in someone else kitchen, trying to eat a meal and you didn't ask the house owner where the forks at so you go searching by yourself: UX would be "what drawer will the utensils be within the kitchen? Usually close to the microwave/stove/fridge." UI would be "Does this drawer need handles or can you open it from the bottom?"

It sounds like you're describing more of a macro vs micro distinction, rather than a functional vs aesthetic/visual distinction. But either way, you can't cleanly separate the two responsibilities.
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