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Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

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Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#61
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as it is not also an excuse to not undo the wrongs that often persist with such multi-generational catastrophic human problems. If I knew that everything I have is built on genocide, I would feel pretty wrong. Those who do not are probably a bit strange imho.

> If I knew that everything I have is built on genocide, I would feel pretty wrong. Well, isn't it? Human history is a bloody affair from the first days of farming to today. History is a long series of wrongs. How shall we undo them?

How about recognising wrongs as a first step?

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#62
post #8

I wonder how you can tell the underlying language when you have multiple languages sharing the same script?

Through the phonetic. Here is a sentence in Wolof "No toudou?" Anyone who reads it and understands Wolof would know the language. I know because this is how we (I am Senegalese and Wolof) write to each other in WhatsApp.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#63

The story is great, but there are many inconsistencies. I believe it was decorated to the point the facts were bent to follow the story. After reading the article, I thought that reasearchers learned about the existence of Ajami just recently, far after the colonial powers were gone. That's not true. In 1970, a museum was created in Tombouctou for collecting the documents in Arabic and Ajami. https://en.wikipedia.org…

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Come on, I didn’t downvote you but it is a lazy reaction to just repeat a tired label as if it explains something. All writing for the public tries to spice things up to engage the reader, some take it too far. We could talk all day about anti- woke hyperbole.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#64
There are some misleading points in the article. First of all, Ajam doesn't mean foreigner. It means "Mute". The story goes back to when Arabs invaded Persian Empire in the 7th century. Iranians (Persians) called the Arabic language "Tazi", which means dog barking (since a simple conversation in the Arabic language sounded like a dog barking to them). Arabs, in retaliation, called Persians Mute since they couldn't pronounce Arabic sounds. Since then, to this day, Iranians still mention Arabic texts and language as Tazi, although Arabs already gave up calling them Mute (Ajam)! The second point is about "Islamic evangelists" spreading the religion. The writer forgot that the Islamic evangelists were also actively burning books and scrolls all over their newly invaded territory because all books were apparently useless except one book! (You know which book I'm talking about, I don't want to lose my head, I'm not name-dropping). As a result, in almost all Muslim countries (except Iran and Afghanistan), the written languages were lost forever and replaced by Tazi. So, whose fault was it? Who made hundreds of local written languages vanish? Local people themselves since they didn't bother to fight back against Arabic culture? Arabs since they shoved their holy book and unholy culture in every corner of local cultures? Europian who knew about all of this, but they lied and hid it to have their own exploitation plans? Or all of the options?

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#65
post #21

The story is great, but there are many inconsistencies. I believe it was decorated to the point the facts were bent to follow the story. After reading the article, I thought that reasearchers learned about the existence of Ajami just recently, far after the colonial powers were gone. That's not true. In 1970, a museum was created in Tombouctou for collecting the documents in Arabic and Ajami. https://en.wikipedia.org…

Historic revisionism has become very popular so as to make everyone feel better about their ancestors place in the annals of history. That everyone was at the same level and made the same amount of contributions to the modern world, etc. And of course it was the singularly evil colonizers and their descendants that stole this history and claimed it for themselves, etc. To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Wh…

> Historic revisionism has become very popular so as to make everyone feel better about their ancestors place in the annals of history. [...] To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Who cares which groups of who were advanced or not and what they were doing back then.

The short answer is: a lack of humility. Humility, which is a readiness to accept the truth (forget the common misconception which construes it as a kind of theater of lowliness), is need to accept history as it was. It is needed to accept the causes of things as they are or were, without rashness. Pride, which is antithetical to humility, leads people toward delusion, toward either chauvinism or denial and therefore away from the truth and toward agendas and what they want rather than what is in a way that is divorced from reality. So you can have chauvinists who will use their civilization's successes as a pretext to dominate others, and you can have envious people who belong to generally unimpressive civilizations and cultures who cannot accept the inferiority of their historical record according to various measures. We all know this to be the case, but we are often conditioned to fear admitting the obvious (we may be wrong in the details, but I have in mind the general principle that cultures and civilizations may be superior or inferior to others according to various measures). There is nothing to be gained from this prideful status game. If some culture or civilizations can teach us something valuable that isn't found in our own, however small or large, what conceivable reason could there be to refuse to learn from them? The only reason is pride.

So, it is not insignificant that some cultures and civilizations thrived while others did not. The fruits of a civilizations are useful clues, though naturally clues that require wise interpretation. And there is no reason why one cannot be grateful for the accomplishments of his ancestors, but this is gratitude, not bragging or condescension. Charity motivates a desire to share these fruits with others. And indeed, the colonial era was a period when that did happen, even if lots of bad things also happened. We lack the ability to accept that societies are mixed, that there are bad actors and good actors. The current anti-colonial narrative is characterized by a kind of embarrassingly anti-intellectual, reductive, boorish simplemindedness. That colonialism benefited the colonized in certain ways does not contradict the valid criticisms of what occurred during that era. Pointing out the positives is not colonial apologetics. The world is not a comic book in which the world is neatly divided into good and bad people, into good and bad groups.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#66

The story is great, but there are many inconsistencies. I believe it was decorated to the point the facts were bent to follow the story. After reading the article, I thought that reasearchers learned about the existence of Ajami just recently, far after the colonial powers were gone. That's not true. In 1970, a museum was created in Tombouctou for collecting the documents in Arabic and Ajami. https://en.wikipedia.org…

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Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#67
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historic revisionism has become very popular so as to make everyone feel better about their ancestors place in the annals of history. That everyone was at the same level and made the same amount of contributions to the modern world, etc. And of course it was the singularly evil colonizers and their descendants that stole this history and claimed it for themselves, etc. To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Wh…

> To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Who cares which groups of who were advanced or not and what they were doing back then. The people colonizing those lands certainly cared at the time, and they used such beliefs to justify a lot of pretty awful acts. Given that the modern, western world is built on the legacy of colonialism, it's important (at least to me) to understand whether those motivating beliefs w…

Taking over land, goods and people is a very human thing to do, not localized to europe. There were nations (tribes, kingdoms, whatever) trying to occupy europe too, both from the south and east... and let's not forget the many many internal european wars and conquests.

Looking globally, europeans were really that much more advanced (in science, warfare, medicine, logistics,...) than the areas they managed to occupy... how else would a few people on a few boats occupy whole continents? Did those people do a lot of very very bad things (from slavery to genocide) ... sure. Was there some luck involved? Sure... the romans were more advanced than the occupying tribes and they still lost. But generally, the more advanced groups were the winners.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#68
post #8

I wonder how you can tell the underlying language when you have multiple languages sharing the same script?

You need to know the languages. And then you pick up certain words, features or ways spellings are done. Even ignoring the more specific letters and diacritics, it is somewhat guessable what language is written with latin alphabet. Even if there is many of them.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#69

There are some misleading points in the article. First of all, Ajam doesn't mean foreigner. It means "Mute". The story goes back to when Arabs invaded Persian Empire in the 7th century. Iranians (Persians) called the Arabic language "Tazi", which means dog barking (since a simple conversation in the Arabic language sounded like a dog barking to them). Arabs, in retaliation, called Persians Mute since they couldn't pr…

> Islamic evangelists were also actively burning books and scrolls all over their newly invaded territory because all books were apparently useless except one book!

Can you share a source for this claim?

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#70

The story is great, but there are many inconsistencies. I believe it was decorated to the point the facts were bent to follow the story. After reading the article, I thought that reasearchers learned about the existence of Ajami just recently, far after the colonial powers were gone. That's not true. In 1970, a museum was created in Tombouctou for collecting the documents in Arabic and Ajami. https://en.wikipedia.org…

I have to admit I got discouraged by the implausible narrative and didn't finish reading, so maybe it's addressed, but it seemed very strange to me that this scholar's father, his neighbors, and apparently many others around him, were engaging in writing without him ever noticing. He had "been told that these people were illiterate"...did he not grow up in that community? Why did his brother, who still lives there, n…

It's especially strange that it mentions poetry and advertisements being written in the script.
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