Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system • Hacker News Board

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#11

Post by tgv » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 1:39 PM UTC

trabant00 wrote: post #3

In the wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajami_script you can find references from 1971 and 1982. I find it hard to understand how this could be "an enormous discovery" in 2004. Nor do I understand the numerous mentions of European colonialism in the article.

There are hardly mentions of colonialism, only where it fits. And that's the point, it seems: nobody bothered to look, apparently convinced in one way or another that the people were illiterate. So, it's an interesting and large set of documents.

The remark I found most interesting was that it wasn't taught at school, but that people seem to have taught it among themselves. The article doesn't mention any other form of teaching, but it might have something to do with the earlier Muslim colonization/proselytizing and the subsequent spread of the Quran.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#12

Post by idoubtit » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 1:44 PM UTC

The story is great, but there are many inconsistencies. I believe it was decorated to the point the facts were bent to follow the story.

After reading the article, I thought that reasearchers learned about the existence of Ajami just recently, far after the colonial powers were gone. That's not true. In 1970, a museum was created in Tombouctou for collecting the documents in Arabic and Ajami. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbuktu_Manuscripts (The French Wikipedia mentions "Ajami" for these manuscript, the English page only mentions "Arabic and local languages"). And there have been research publications about Adjami texts for many decades.

> we’ve been told that these people are illiterate, [...] > their authors were code-switching throughout the text: writing in strict Arabic and in its modified Ajami form.

The article claims the colonial system ignored the local writing system, so it thought that people were illiterate. But Arabic was well-known, and nobody would have tagged "illiterate" on someone that could write Arabic texts.

> [The Mouride] were communicating messages that the French could not understand.

I don't think the colonial authorities were stupid to the point of not realizing that a text written with an Arabic alphabet was not a text. I think anyone seeing this would have thought of Arabic. And anyway it's obviously a text, and the authorities would have found someone to translate it: there were scores of people who worked for the authorities.

Overall, this article could have been a nice and informative story, but it's half PR bullshit, so I had to suppose anything int it was a lie until cross-checked.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#13

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 1:46 PM UTC

lukeschlather wrote: post #10

coldcode wrote: post #8

I wonder how you can tell the underlying language when you have multiple languages sharing the same script?

It's phonetic, and these are all living languages. All you need to know is what characters correspond to which phonemes and you need someone who can speak enough words of the language.

So the same way you tell written French from German today.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#14

Post by lukeschlather » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 1:48 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #6

trabant00 wrote: post #3

In the wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajami_script you can find references from 1971 and 1982. I find it hard to understand how this could be "an enormous discovery" in 2004. Nor do I understand the numerous mentions of European colonialism in the article.

It wasn't any enormous discovery. The particular academic in the article might have learned this thing existed from his father scribbles, but it has been a thing for centuries and has been studied in the past. They could have just learn about it by studing the literature. It's more about getting more publicity for it, and getting the library and digitization program mentioned in the article going. That should have be…

It seems to me like a significant discovery for the researcher. And it seems like he discovered something that is being deliberately hidden. I'm also curious about what "preoccupations" you're referring to. People are preoccupied with alleviating illiteracy in Africa, it's interesting that these illiteracy figures may be inflated, and it makes me wonder what groups are trying to make Africa look more illiterate than it is, and why. (It seems at least in part some of the people classified as illiterate like it that way, since the government can't monitor your communications if it refuses to acknowledge they exist.)

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#15

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 1:48 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #13

lukeschlather wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's phonetic, and these are all living languages. All you need to know is what characters correspond to which phonemes and you need someone who can speak enough words of the language.

So the same way you tell written French from German today.

[deleted]

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#16

Post by lukeschlather » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 1:54 PM UTC

idoubtit wrote: post #12

The story is great, but there are many inconsistencies. I believe it was decorated to the point the facts were bent to follow the story. After reading the article, I thought that reasearchers learned about the existence of Ajami just recently, far after the colonial powers were gone. That's not true. In 1970, a museum was created in Tombouctou for collecting the documents in Arabic and Ajami. https://en.wikipedia.org…

> But Arabic was well-known, and nobody would have tagged "illiterate" on someone that could write Arabic texts.

The article asserts that there are still considerable groups of people carrying on commerce in Ajami, and that the official governments in those regions don't recognize Ajami as existing as a script. Are you saying this is a lie, and that people who read and write Ajami are largely considered literate by their governments?

Or are you saying that this is a lie and Ajami isn't actually used in any significant way these days?

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#17

Post by aga98mtl » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 1:57 PM UTC

josh_fyi wrote: post #4

trabant00 wrote: post #3

In the wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajami_script you can find references from 1971 and 1982. I find it hard to understand how this could be "an enormous discovery" in 2004. Nor do I understand the numerous mentions of European colonialism in the article.

Indeed, just as French language and Latin-based orthographies for languages in this reason are the result of a colonial legacy, so too the use of Arabic as a prestige language (mentioned in this article) and an Arabic-based orthography.

As far as we know, Senegal was never an arab colony or under direct control. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Senegal#Kingdoms_an...

Calling it an arab colony would be like saying Sweden was a roman colony because they use the roman script.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#18

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 1:58 PM UTC

lukeschlather wrote: post #16

idoubtit wrote: post #12

The story is great, but there are many inconsistencies. I believe it was decorated to the point the facts were bent to follow the story. After reading the article, I thought that reasearchers learned about the existence of Ajami just recently, far after the colonial powers were gone. That's not true. In 1970, a museum was created in Tombouctou for collecting the documents in Arabic and Ajami. https://en.wikipedia.org…

> But Arabic was well-known, and nobody would have tagged "illiterate" on someone that could write Arabic texts. The article asserts that there are still considerable groups of people carrying on commerce in Ajami, and that the official governments in those regions don't recognize Ajami as existing as a script. Are you saying this is a lie, and that people who read and write Ajami are largely considered literate by t…

> groups of people carrying on commerce in Ajami, and that the official governments in those regions don't recognize Ajami as existing as a script

Not recognised as an official language is far from not being recognised as a script.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#19

Post by etothepii » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:06 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #13

lukeschlather wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's phonetic, and these are all living languages. All you need to know is what characters correspond to which phonemes and you need someone who can speak enough words of the language.

So the same way you tell written French from German today.

Surely the lack of a ß gives it away.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#20

Post by Proven » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

trabant00 wrote: post #3

In the wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajami_script you can find references from 1971 and 1982. I find it hard to understand how this could be "an enormous discovery" in 2004. Nor do I understand the numerous mentions of European colonialism in the article.

[dead]