Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system • Hacker News Board

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#31

Post by jackmott » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:33 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #21

idoubtit wrote: post #12

The story is great, but there are many inconsistencies. I believe it was decorated to the point the facts were bent to follow the story. After reading the article, I thought that reasearchers learned about the existence of Ajami just recently, far after the colonial powers were gone. That's not true. In 1970, a museum was created in Tombouctou for collecting the documents in Arabic and Ajami. https://en.wikipedia.org…

Historic revisionism has become very popular so as to make everyone feel better about their ancestors place in the annals of history. That everyone was at the same level and made the same amount of contributions to the modern world, etc. And of course it was the singularly evil colonizers and their descendants that stole this history and claimed it for themselves, etc. To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Wh…

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Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#32

Post by darknoon » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:34 PM UTC

coldcode wrote: post #8

I wonder how you can tell the underlying language when you have multiple languages sharing the same script?

Having spent a few months in Senegal, basically if it's on a sign it's probably Wolof, if it's in a Koran or religious school it might be Arabic (though many people can only read the Koran phonetically, they don't understand the language).

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#33

Post by shmageggy » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:38 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #21

idoubtit wrote: post #12

The story is great, but there are many inconsistencies. I believe it was decorated to the point the facts were bent to follow the story. After reading the article, I thought that reasearchers learned about the existence of Ajami just recently, far after the colonial powers were gone. That's not true. In 1970, a museum was created in Tombouctou for collecting the documents in Arabic and Ajami. https://en.wikipedia.org…

Historic revisionism has become very popular so as to make everyone feel better about their ancestors place in the annals of history. That everyone was at the same level and made the same amount of contributions to the modern world, etc. And of course it was the singularly evil colonizers and their descendants that stole this history and claimed it for themselves, etc. To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Wh…

> To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Who cares which groups of who were advanced or not and what they were doing back then.

The people colonizing those lands certainly cared at the time, and they used such beliefs to justify a lot of pretty awful acts. Given that the modern, western world is built on the legacy of colonialism, it's important (at least to me) to understand whether those motivating beliefs were true.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#34

Post by lukeschlather » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #18

lukeschlather wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Arabic was well-known, and nobody would have tagged "illiterate" on someone that could write Arabic texts. The article asserts that there are still considerable groups of people carrying on commerce in Ajami, and that the official governments in those regions don't recognize Ajami as existing as a script. Are you saying this is a lie, and that people who read and write Ajami are largely considered literate by t…

> groups of people carrying on commerce in Ajami, and that the official governments in those regions don't recognize Ajami as existing as a script Not recognised as an official language is far from not being recognised as a script.

Not recognizing that there are substantial populations that read and write it is different from not recognizing it as an official language.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#35

Post by scythe » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:48 PM UTC

VeninVidiaVicii wrote: post #2

In this adaptation of Arabic script, it seems like the harakat (vowel markers) are obligatory, and much larger than standard Arabic. I always wondered why the pre-reform Turkish language forfeited vowel identifiers. It works for Arabic, but many other languages need vowels for disambiguation.

Ottoman authorities banned the production of Arabic/Turkish texts using the printing press in the 16th century. As a result, the first printed publication in the Ottoman Empire was in Hebrew!

This enormous act of self-sabotage probably kept the alphabets in the Muslim world from standardizing during the 1500s-1800s as the Europeans had, so variations in writing remained common. Pre-1400s texts from Europe look weird, too.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#36

Post by lukeschlather » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:48 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #22

lukeschlather wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like a significant discovery for the researcher. And it seems like he discovered something that is being deliberately hidden. I'm also curious about what "preoccupations" you're referring to. People are preoccupied with alleviating illiteracy in Africa, it's interesting that these illiteracy figures may be inflated, and it makes me wonder what groups are trying to make Africa look more illiterate than…

> It seems to me like a significant discovery for the researcher. A researcher not being aware of something openly used for centuries and already covered in relevant studies, research literature, symposiums (and even popular articles) well before they learn about it, does not quality them made aware of it as being a "discovery". That's not how the term "discovery" works in an academic context, and certainly it's not…

From an American standpoint I (and in fact my government) is pluralistic and opposed to the idea of an official language, so if you tell me someone is illiterate because they don't speak the official language, you mean something different from what I mean.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#37

Post by ninkendo » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:49 PM UTC

shmageggy wrote: post #33

nemo44x wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historic revisionism has become very popular so as to make everyone feel better about their ancestors place in the annals of history. That everyone was at the same level and made the same amount of contributions to the modern world, etc. And of course it was the singularly evil colonizers and their descendants that stole this history and claimed it for themselves, etc. To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Wh…

> To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Who cares which groups of who were advanced or not and what they were doing back then. The people colonizing those lands certainly cared at the time, and they used such beliefs to justify a lot of pretty awful acts. Given that the modern, western world is built on the legacy of colonialism, it's important (at least to me) to understand whether those motivating beliefs w…

I think that’s a pretty uncharitable interpretation of GP’s comment. They said you don’t need to feel better or worse about yourself due to what your ancestors did or didn’t do and when. It doesn’t mean nobody did any bad things or that we can’t learn from it, but that we shouldn’t let it cause more tribalism today.

IMO, we’re all the same species, our history is littered with awful and good people, and lots of flawed people in between. The retelling of history can be a bit one-sided at times, but it’s sometimes unhealthy to fixate on it as an ongoing cause of problems today.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#38

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:50 PM UTC

lukeschlather wrote: post #34

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> groups of people carrying on commerce in Ajami, and that the official governments in those regions don't recognize Ajami as existing as a script Not recognised as an official language is far from not being recognised as a script.

Not recognizing that there are substantial populations that read and write it is different from not recognizing it as an official language.

> not recognizing that there are substantial populations that read and write

Who isn’t recognising it? This article is a story of personal discovery, not actual discovery. That’s why it’s a narrative press release. Not a paper.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#39

Post by ninkendo » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:50 PM UTC

parasti wrote: post #25

nemo44x wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historic revisionism has become very popular so as to make everyone feel better about their ancestors place in the annals of history. That everyone was at the same level and made the same amount of contributions to the modern world, etc. And of course it was the singularly evil colonizers and their descendants that stole this history and claimed it for themselves, etc. To me it’s weird because it’s so unimportant. Wh…

Is it weird or is it just human nature?

Both. Human nature can be weird.

Re: Unearthing a long-ignored African writing system

#40

Post by hirako2000 » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:53 PM UTC

ⴰⵣⵓⵍ,

There is no african writing system. Even less so using this alphabet.

It would be as ridiculous as claiming the discovery of some unknown Eurasian writing system, dated some 12 centuries ago.

Multiple writing systems were used throughout Africa, some likely totally native to the region , and some being the result of influences of one or many writing system coming from elsewhere.

In north Africa alone, Latin, Arabic, and before that some variant of phoenician was commonly used. All three even still used to this day. All used before, during and after the most recent colonies. Those of the French and the British who may have generalised the observations that people didn't seem literate when they got there. Authorities probably thought it would make a good narrative and justify their presence: bringing civilisation to inferior races. It isn't from me, that's exactly what some key figure of the "enlightment" period was claiming. Some moral obligation to colonise. Certainly convenient for some who figured natural resources over there could be quite useful to boost their ambition. Or desires for comfort provided by cheap labour.

African regions had numerous writing systems. To find African history, you would get better luck studying oral traditions. If writing systems is your funded research, start with what others had already figured out.

It's appalling "research" has fallen that low, this thing was actually funded and the result even published on some .edu domain.