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Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

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Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#171

Post by nicoburns »

Scarblac wrote: post #147
nicoburns wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s because boot camp graduates often have no experience prior to the boot camp, so they’ll often only have 3 months coding experience total. Whereas most other applicants will have much more experience than that even if they have no professional experience.

But in those few months, they were often trained intensively on exactly the tech stack you're looking for, and they built some things, in a team, that look a lot like what's actually done day to day in many businesses. In an up to date way. That helps! We have only one boot camp graduate, who came from a completely different career. He's been productive from day 1, has carefully listened to all advice he's got since…

> he's just very good after two years

Right, but a self-taught developer might well have years of non-commercial experience and be good in two months or even from the get-go.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#172

Post by josephg »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #95
roland35 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We may think coding challenges are easy - but after interviewing many "senior" engineers I've found that it's very helpful to have _some_ sort of coding as part of the interview. Algorithm and Data Structures based questions are not really popular, but they are at least a known quantity and can be studied for as a candidate. I prefer more realistic scenario type coding interviews (ie implement a new feature, fix a bu…

I don't see how expecting candidates to know algorithms by heart or solving complex algorithms is useful. Whenever I encounter that at work I research the topic extensively and learn or re-learn whatever it is I need. I completely agree on testing on real tasks, given some candidates who perform terribly on those manage to squeeze by (even thanks to them passing leetcode bs interview without having real world experie…

I think I broadly agree for most programming jobs.

Algorithm problems are based on the philosophy that if you can implement a binary tree in 20 minutes, you’re smart enough to figure out just about anything else that comes up. They were popularised by Google, who hire with the goal of never hiring incompetent people even if it means missing out on some good people.

There’s two problems with algorithm problem interviews:

1. All the people who do great at this stuff can make $300k+ at cashed up companies. There are not many people like this who want to work for you.

2. There are plenty of people who will do a great job fixing issues and adding feature to your web app who don’t know what a B-Tree is. You probably still want to hire them.

So yeah, I agree generally with the advice. Most programming problems given in interviews should be relevant to the actual job on the ground.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#173

Post by hnarn »

eamonnsullivan wrote: post #122

I've had two (main) careers -- I was a journalist for 20 years, starting as a sport reporter for a local weekly, and ending as the legal affairs editor for Europe for a international news service. But I had also been a computer geek for at least as long. My Dad worked for IBM and I had one of the first IBM PCs, which was utterly useless when the family got one unless you could program in BASIC. I took a few CompSci c…

This is great because it highlights something a lot of people don’t understand about writing software professionally: you are a translator of domain knowledge into useful applications. If you have a lot of domain knowledge in something, regardless of what it is, if you also write software it would be a waste to not improve that domain for all of those who are just like you but do not write software.

It’s not about being a 10x developer, it’s about identifying a problem and solving it.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#174

Post by mtnGoat »

jcpst wrote: post #140
mtnGoat wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I’ve hired At least 100 developers in my career And have never seen coding challenges or boot camps as Red flags, rather I see them as someone going out and trying to learn and improve. On the contrary certain universities and employers certainly are( too much indoctrination(and ego in some cases) to undo). I know a number of boot camp graduates working in FANG level companies. Coding challenges are very…

I don’t have hiring authority, but I was on a lot of technical interviews at my company for a while. When people put their GH handle on their resume, I definitely checked it out. Sometimes I would even see if I could get it running on the first try. This has been an indicator of some of practices they have. But it’s only ever a small piece of the picture. Some people push their code to github when they are very junio…

That’s what I see a lot too. Old code from when they were learning stuff, usually not reflective of their current levels. Most things you do for an employer can’t be shared, so that’s why I’ve always given it low credence.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#175

Post by throwaway0asd »

saurik wrote: post #148
throwaway0asd wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely the difference in performance is due to differences in expectations. The two greatest common failures I see repeated among software developers is: 1) The inability to consider diverse perspectives 2) The inability to differentiate writing instructions from building something larger For example many developers cannot imagine the career requirements associated with other careers. That could be due to lack o…

I am having a difficult time inferring your meaning for "writing instructions".

I have seen developers confused by the words writing instructions before, suggesting either they do not know what writing is, what instructions are, or that they cannot differentiate between writing an application and writing a few instructions.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#176

Post by neontomo »

georgyo wrote: post #170

There is a lot of comments, but no one took a moment to look at your profile and visit your website. Pointed advice, specifically for you. 1. There is no links to any of your code. If you are actually in front of a computer so much, surely you have somethings you can share. 2. Your writing is pretty good, but you don't write about any tech stuff. Since your writing is good, write about some of your programming projec…

Thank you for taking the time to give such direct feedback. I think I missed you by a few minutes, I just switched the link in my profile to my Github. It's pretty bare atm because I only just started adding my projects on there. My intention is to have it grow with time.

The questionable writing is from the perspective that I don't want to pretend some perfect image. I will consider taking that post down, however.

Not sure where you got 22 years from, I'm 29 and started working at 18! I've worked outside the service industry too (recently at Apple) but yes that's my main experience.

Again thank you, I appreciate it. I will write more technical blog posts.

Edit: and the Linux post you mentioned is a parody, it's stated at the bottom

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#177

Post by neontomo »

xwdv wrote: post #6

You need the instant credibility that a CS degree provides. A hobbyist will always have to end up proving themselves in each new job and you have to just get lucky on someone willing to take a chance. Other than that, you could try building out a successful product or freelancing for some time.

I don't mind spending some time proving myself, if it sets me up for a better career in the long term. Yes, I will make more products!

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#178

Post by neontomo »

rubberband wrote: post #86

Late to the party, but maybe I can help. I've helped in the hiring of many developers. (grain of salt, just my opinion, etc...) * Don't do bootcamps. It's a red flag for me. This can be said for any 100% online college. (again, I'm just being honest). Community colleges are fine. * You having a Github that you've committed stuff to often-ish will most interest me. I don't give a crud if you contribute to open source.…

Thank you, a very insightful comment. I've recently started adding to my Github, I will keep it up and be honest about my level of skill. I find it hard to know where my level is though, as I don't have much to compare it to other than seeing Stack Overflow answers and the stuff I find on Github.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#179

Post by neontomo »

wturner wrote: post #51

If you can pass employer coding challenges as easily as you say, the rest is low hanging fruit. It’s hard for me to imagine what the problem is on your end. I have the complete inverse problem. Here’s what I would do: Make up a name for your own personal company and get a matching domain. Make a basic website with your domain. Under the resume/CV entry for this make-believe-company write that you perform contract wor…

This doesn't suit me very well, but thank you for the suggestion.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#180

Post by neontomo »

phphphphp wrote: post #11

Job experience is a cheap proxy for the ability to get things done : if you've had multiple programming jobs, then you've probably been able to get things done and so hiring you is a safe choice. The absence of programming job experience doesn't mean you can't get things done, it just means you need to demonstrate to employers that you can get things done in other ways. You don't need to do a bootcamp (and I'd argue…

I agree that the coding challenges are quite different from real world application of code, they always catch me a bit off guard as the type of problem to be solved is so far from what I've solved before. It's fun though, and I enjoy the challenge even when I get a bit stuck. Thanks for your comment.
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