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Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

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Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#51

Post by wturner »

If you can pass employer coding challenges as easily as you say, the rest is low hanging fruit. It’s hard for me to imagine what the problem is on your end. I have the complete inverse problem.

Here’s what I would do:

Make up a name for your own personal company and get a matching domain. Make a basic website with your domain. Under the resume/CV entry for this make-believe-company write that you perform contract work and list projects you’ve done.Frame the entry to implicitly infer they were paid gigs. Don’t lie about them being personal projects but don’t say they were for free either! In the date entry for the job type a value that spans a time value of your choice, say 3 years.

Congrats you’ve now been writing code professionally for three years. With your new contracting company you have the scaffolding to get new paid projects to boot.

Welcome to professional programming.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#52

Post by robocat »

franciscop wrote: post #26
phphphphp wrote: post #11

Job experience is a cheap proxy for the ability to get things done : if you've had multiple programming jobs, then you've probably been able to get things done and so hiring you is a safe choice. The absence of programming job experience doesn't mean you can't get things done, it just means you need to demonstrate to employers that you can get things done in other ways. You don't need to do a bootcamp (and I'd argue…

I'd argue that part of "the ability to get things done" is exactly what OP is likely missing as a hobbyist: the ability to work with peers and superiors effectively. Doing a bootcamp is IMHO a good way to help on the ability to work with peers; while it's not the focus and you might get bored on the coding side of things, that's also good because it gives you time to think and act on how to collaborate more effective…

> I'd argue that part of "the ability to get things done" is exactly what OP is likely missing as a hobbyist: the ability to work with peers and superiors effectively

Completely disagree: in plenty of other jobs people learn to get things done, and how to work with peers/bosses/reports. There is not much signal about the OPs soft skill level so you are making an assumption.

Interpersonal skills tend to be strongest in people that are always working with others (particularly clients and peers) rather than sitting in front of a computer. I would rather work with a cook/hairdresser/etc that became a software programmer than developers completely lacking in motivation or lacking interpersonal skills (I have had the distinct displeasure of working with plenty of low-EQ developers in my past).

There are specific interactions in software that are somewhat specialised. However the generalised interpersonal skills are what it is difficult to be good at, and the specialised software soft skills are learnable. (Edited: clarity)

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#53

Post by yojo »

I had essentially the same background as you, and made the leap 10 years ago. Here’s what I did:

1) With a friend, I worked through a bunch of tutorials of the current startup web framework (at the time, Rails).

2) At my non-programming job, I looked for opportunities to code things. I made some internal websites, utility tools, stuff like that.

3) I worked my way through Cracking the Coding Interview. This was pre-leetcode.

4) I applied to early stage startups that were desperate to get talent in the door. I tried two, and got two offers.

5) I learned an incredible amount getting thrown in. It was brutal at first and I get like I was constantly failing. But I had good co-workers who helped me over the hump. I learned an incredible amount. From there I was able to move up the ladder to the FAANG level pay.

YMMV, 2023 job market is not the 2012 job market, but if your problem is “lack of experience”, the easiest fix is to find a way to get experience at your current job. Most employers do not consider Bootcamps as equivalent to real experience either.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#54

Post by Bilal_io »

masukomi wrote: post #28

> Without any programming jobs on my CV, what is a good way to penetrate into the market? freelance work. Sign up on Upwork.com (or similar). Do a bunch of contracts. Put them on your resume. I did freelance work for years before deciding i was sick of constantly hustling for clients. Then I applied for jobs and said "here's all the things I've done" and they were like "cool. interview. yup. you're hired" Also, pro-t…

I'd like to add that freelance on Upwork can lead to long term relationships with clients, which have kick-started many people's careers as software engineers, including mine.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#55

Post by hosh »

Look for contract work and agencies. Keep an eye open to local businesses that might need some help. I don’t know if the market supports this, but you can also find early stage startups to help out. Attend local tech meetups (esp if they are in person, and just talk shop with folks), and find out about any Hackerthons that might be going on. Make presentations; if you got completed projects, people are likely interested. Sign into local slack / discord communities

You can also participate in open source projects. If you have projects from your tinkering that you don’t mind open sourcing, getting that out on github with some documentation explaining what you were trying to accomplish helps. You can spend a little bit of a time answering questions on Stack Overflow.

If you are using more niche languages (such as Elixir), spend a little time answering questions there as well.

Get links for that all on the CV.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#58

Post by phphphphp »

tejohnso wrote: post #35
phphphphp wrote: post #11

Job experience is a cheap proxy for the ability to get things done : if you've had multiple programming jobs, then you've probably been able to get things done and so hiring you is a safe choice. The absence of programming job experience doesn't mean you can't get things done, it just means you need to demonstrate to employers that you can get things done in other ways. You don't need to do a bootcamp (and I'd argue…

> Passing a coding challenge is easy Something must be wrong with me then because I've been programming for decades in multiple areas productively, but successfully completing three leetcode medium/hard within 45 minutes while also talking through my thought process is not something I'd call easy. > so don't focus on them at all I'd suggest most people aren't going to get past the first level if they follow this advi…

Regarding coding challenges, I meant to say that they're just as easy to pass as they are to fail, meaning you can fail one test and pass another and it mean nothing about your ability or value as a software engineer. I've failed some embarrassingly easy coding challenges and completed others in the best manner the hirer has ever seen. They're meaningless. You should not consider them as a reflection on your value or prospects.

If you're consistently failing coding challenges, you have a couple of options.

1. Find companies that don't use them. 2. Push back against any coding challenges and instead offer to complete a small project for them that you believe will represent the way you work in totality -- advocate for the pointlessness of coding challenges and encourage the company to change their practices. 3. Cheat (and in the unlikely situation in which you're caught, just say "I solve problems by googling, like any good software engineer") 4. The worst option is to waste your time grinding through leetcode etc. and become good at passing these dumb coding challenges. I can see why that option appeals to us (it feels like a video game, like we just need to practice more to level up) but it has nothing to do with software engineering.

The fact that no offers were received by the OP after passing coding challenges should show how little they're thought of by hirers: they're a lazy half-baked way to exclude a bunch of applicants and feel like it was helpful / fair / meritocratic. A company using coding challenges may as well just randomly select 20% of applicants to go through to interview.

Imagine you work at a company that uses coding challenges as part of their interview screen. Imagine they need to hire someone for your team. Imagine you worked with someone in a previous job who is an amazing software engineer and you know they would provide incredible value to your team. Imagine that person fails the coding challenge. Would that person get the job or not? In any rational company, you would just discard the coding challenge result, because you have a much stronger signal: one of your team is vouching for them. Any company willing to disregard a candidate because they failed a coding challenge is a company that is falling far short in their ability to hire the best people. For some companies, they don't care about hiring the best, they just need a bunch of people who can meet the bare minimum coding challenge requirement, but that's not a company worth working at.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#59

Post by Beefin »

wturner wrote: post #51

If you can pass employer coding challenges as easily as you say, the rest is low hanging fruit. It’s hard for me to imagine what the problem is on your end. I have the complete inverse problem. Here’s what I would do: Make up a name for your own personal company and get a matching domain. Make a basic website with your domain. Under the resume/CV entry for this make-believe-company write that you perform contract wor…

this. i did the same :)

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#60

Post by cloudedcordial »

I'd say expand your network. You need to see how your skills could be impactful for others. Something could be a big deal for you but not for others. In addition, you may discover some trends or knowledge that you may not know. You are taking a great step by asking here.

Armed with the knowledge, you can build a portfolio that is relevant to the employers. Prepare to have some stories to tell how you overcome the obstacles: Just like what others point out, you need some evidence of get things done.

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