South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths' • Hacker News Board

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#121

Post by safety1st » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #5

dandare wrote: post #3

As with any male-specific problem, the progressive left will blame it on patriarchy and oppose any solution.

What are some examples of proposed solutions that the progressive left would oppose?

Banning birth control.

I don't support doing that myself, but if you look at the US two of the demographics with the highest reproduction rates are Mormons and Hispanic Catholics. Both follow religious prohibitions against birth control. The progressive left firmly supports the right to an abortion as well as the right to use contraceptives so that answers your question.

From a demographic standpoint what's basically happening in the US is atheist liberals are wringing their hands and dying childless as various religious people produce the next generation that will replace them (Muslims have a very high birth rate too).

All that said, the article was about South Korea which has very different politics. In South Korea I don't think there is a big left/right divide over this and the main issue is probably that they're working themselves to death instead of having kids.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#122

Post by DangitBobby » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 5:33 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #62

leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Encouraging people to marry and have committed monogamous relationships. Create a stigma to encourage people to only have sex inside of committed marriage relationships so when they get older the have a lasting relationship with someone. Also it's would help killing the sex trade as a young man will pe willing to pay for it via websites or in person, but don't form those long term relationships before it's too late.

None of these things stop anyone (including men) from dying alone. Stigmatization itself is the root of the problem here: lonely people, and particular men, do not want to admit that they are lonely.

I doubt that's the problem. It takes effort to go out and try to make friends. Even trying does not guarantee success. I'm barely thirty and I can't remember the last time I made a friend on my own. There are people in my orbit (family) who help me meet new people and stay connected. I'd be doing a really bad job without them.

My lonely friend who moved away regularly says he is lonely, but also hasn't really made any new friends where he lives. They decided to move to another state where there are more people who speak his wife's native language, but neither of them know anyone there, despite living there for a couple of years now. Knowing you are lonely and telling others you are lonely doesn't help if you don't have a support network or community.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#123

Post by DangitBobby » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #100

gernb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does as man admitting that he's lonely help?

“Admit” as in “enable social structures around,” not “confess to random strangers.” As a concrete (and tiny) example: we enforce loneliness at the physical and policy levels by subsiding the construction of car-dependent suburbs: human socialization becomes defined by points of interaction (driving to the bowling alley, except you have no friends to bowl with), rather than transitory areas of interaction.

This is very different your original statement. Social structures that create loneliness are not the same as "stigmatizing" loneliness. And this doesn't explain how the supposed stigma around loneliness causes loneliness in men.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#124

Post by safety1st » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 5:45 PM UTC

seydor wrote: post #114

safety1st wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right those exist, they're called families. Actually they've existed for longer than humans. It turns out that many animals, particularly mammals and including us, have evolved this behavior where they live with their blood relatives and take care of them, it has worked pretty well for millions of years. Now it so happens that in many modern human societies there's a declining birth rate and consequently fewer famili…

that's irrelevant though. People at old age have already lost many of their peers, so they have mostly children to rely on. But people now have fewer children than ever and they are likely to be away. And i dont think parents or children want to be forced to live with each other just for this. We also shouldn't be shaming people for not living with their family. That's why we need something else (and maybe there's an…

It's not irrelevant. I think the point you're missing is that there are not enough young able-bodied people to take care of the lonely old people. There is a numbers issue.

Like in your solution you assume that people exist will be people who are young and have energy and have resources. These people do not exist. Not enough to take care of the massive number of old and sick people being created anyway.

Here's an illustration: https://ourworldindata.org/global-population-pyramid

This is referred to as an inverted population pyramid but really it ends up looking more like a bell. The world used to have lots of young people and not many old people. The flattening of the peak which has happened in only 30 years is stunning! This will keep getting worse until the end of the century.

Korea's population pyramid looks way worse than the one I linked above by the way. From age 60 down it actually is inverted. Again, there are no young people left to do the caretaking you envision. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_South_Korea#/m...

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#125

Post by Qem » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

throwawaysleep wrote: post #99

sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not sure that meshes well with the deities of profit and wealth

Activities have increasingly become profit focused. Not sure why friends couldn’t also be.

It's already a reality for dating. Ask the likes of Tinder. Still it didn't become any better.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#126

Post by seydor » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

safety1st wrote: post #124

seydor wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's irrelevant though. People at old age have already lost many of their peers, so they have mostly children to rely on. But people now have fewer children than ever and they are likely to be away. And i dont think parents or children want to be forced to live with each other just for this. We also shouldn't be shaming people for not living with their family. That's why we need something else (and maybe there's an…

It's not irrelevant. I think the point you're missing is that there are not enough young able-bodied people to take care of the lonely old people. There is a numbers issue. Like in your solution you assume that people exist will be people who are young and have energy and have resources. These people do not exist. Not enough to take care of the massive number of old and sick people being created anyway. Here's an ill…

The point is not to take care of ailing old people, there's other venues for that. Instead it is to have some sort of semiregular contact with other peers that's beneficial both ways.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#127

Post by acdha » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #117

acdha wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Encouraging people to marry and have committed monogamous relationships Who told you that “the progressive left” opposes that? The major marriage-related shifts in the last century were expanding marriage benefits to everyone (interracial, homosexual) and opposition was distinctly right-wing. Now, perhaps this was code for rolling back equal rights so more women would be pressured to enter into or remain in unsatis…

> Who told you that “the progressive left” opposes that? > Now, perhaps this was code for… Yes, what they probably mean by “Encouraging people to marry and have committed monogamous relationships” is “stigmatize, vilify, and legally disincentivize or even prohibit things with don’t fall into ‘traditional’ monogamous (and presumably heterosexual) marriage.” Which many on the progressive left would indeed oppose.

It’s really interesting seeing the intersection of people who talk about marriage as both the bedrock of society and something which isn’t desirable enough to survive without massive social pressure. Having been happily married for a long time that view seems bizarre to me but I know many people who hold it.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#128

Post by Qem » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #6

I'm a middle aged man living alone. My plan for when I need to die is to buy top loaded freezer and prepay my electric bill to give people at least few years to find my body, keeping the process as easy, for the unfortunates who do, and as clean as possible.

Homemade cryonics?

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#129

Post by scotty79 » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 6:00 PM UTC

Qem wrote: post #128

scotty79 wrote: post #6

I'm a middle aged man living alone. My plan for when I need to die is to buy top loaded freezer and prepay my electric bill to give people at least few years to find my body, keeping the process as easy, for the unfortunates who do, and as clean as possible.

Homemade cryonics?

Way too high temperature. Meat stash for someone for when the times get really tough.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#130

Post by scarmig » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 6:02 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #118

scarmig wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't reinstitute gender roles, but recognize that while women have made lots of progress men are still strictly held to their historical gender role, and that the only way forward is to open up the roles available for men.

What about historical gender roles for men would cause a lot of men to be lonely now?

Emotional stoicism.

Homophobia leading to homosocial connections being stigmatized.

Men being objectified for their economic utility leading to them investing less in personal relationships and development.

The stereotype of men being dangerous, leading to aversion to people initiating connections with them and less receptiveness when they do attempt to initiate.

And, above all, the idea that men are hyperagents and thus always responsible for their own issues, and that society shouldn't do anything to help them.