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South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

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Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#111
post #2

This is a situation that will affect too many men worldwide as they are more likely to live single / be childless. The solution is to have communities or networks of people built explitictly around the idea of caring for others.

Right those exist, they're called families. Actually they've existed for longer than humans.

It turns out that many animals, particularly mammals and including us, have evolved this behavior where they live with their blood relatives and take care of them, it has worked pretty well for millions of years.

Now it so happens that in many modern human societies there's a declining birth rate and consequently fewer families are being formed. South Korea's one of the worst off in this regard. You end up with a lot of people being alone and dying alone (the majority are male but women are far from immune).

Why are people not starting families? Well I haven't seen Korea-specific information but I think it's the same as most countries, people typically cite medical and financial reasons.

So basically you have to address cost of living, cost of raising a kid and rising infertility to address this, among other things.

However for a number of societies including Korea's it's probably too late. Koreans can't have more families and your solution probably won't work either. The reason is that the demographic collapse is so extreme, the population is increasingly too old to produce a new generation or take care of other people. There just aren't enough young people to go around. These societies either have to accept mass immigration or collapse. The next few decades will be interesting.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#112
post #17
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some examples of proposed solutions that the progressive left would oppose?

Controversial take, but the reinstitution of gender roles.

Don't reinstitute gender roles, but recognize that while women have made lots of progress men are still strictly held to their historical gender role, and that the only way forward is to open up the roles available for men.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#113
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monogamy argument is basically to force women into relationships with these men rather than using their current choice to not marry men they find undesirable.

Who is being forced into relationships with these men? How undesirable could they be having slept with them at least once?

Is there anyone you’ve ever met that you could imagine having sex with but wouldn’t want to be around for the rest of your life, linking your finances to, or raising children with? Think of how many times you’ve heard about someone changing after starting a relationship - whether that’s cheating, putting more effort into dating than they do to maintaining a relationship or, especially given the culture in question, thinking that the woman should be doing all of the domestic work and child rearing even if that means giving up career prospects?

That last part is really important to understand for these discussions: people sometimes talk about dating like a market but notice how rarely the proposed answer is helping men be better partners rather than pressuring women to accept less.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#114
post #2

This is a situation that will affect too many men worldwide as they are more likely to live single / be childless. The solution is to have communities or networks of people built explitictly around the idea of caring for others.

Right those exist, they're called families. Actually they've existed for longer than humans. It turns out that many animals, particularly mammals and including us, have evolved this behavior where they live with their blood relatives and take care of them, it has worked pretty well for millions of years. Now it so happens that in many modern human societies there's a declining birth rate and consequently fewer famili…

that's irrelevant though. People at old age have already lost many of their peers, so they have mostly children to rely on. But people now have fewer children than ever and they are likely to be away. And i dont think parents or children want to be forced to live with each other just for this. We also shouldn't be shaming people for not living with their family. That's why we need something else (and maybe there's an entrepreneurial idea there)

Also keep in mind that , particularly for men, the nuclear family living was not the norm until the past few generations. Men used to spent most of their time in men/gentlement's spaces socializing/doing business while the wife was at home with kids. This 'loneliness' thing happens because those other spaces are gone now

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#115
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controversial take, but the reinstitution of gender roles.

I don't particularly agree, but how would you reinstitute gender roles? The president cannot pass a decree that women should be confined to the kitchen. "Traditional" gender roles broke down once wage growth flatlined and it was impossible to support a family on a single income. If you focus on the economic issues - especially those of inequality, it seems to me you would fix far more issues than focusing on social o…

You're right, but you miss a key point: much of what we call "the progressive left" is just corporate and professional managerial class value signaling. It's easy and low cost to call people names and culture war, so activism and attention gets directed (on both sides) toward drag queen story time hour instead of making sure everyone has access to a solid, stable, safe job.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of the nuclear family and traditional family values finally rears its ugly head.

The nuclear family was already a postwar, industrial era, departure from traditional family values. Traditional societies almost universally prioritize multigenerational households.

"Multigenerational households" doesn't really describe what we're moving towards, though. We're going from larger to progressively smaller household units. Nuclear families were an unfortunate step of this atomization, and now even they are being broken down further.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#117
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Encouraging people to marry and have committed monogamous relationships. Create a stigma to encourage people to only have sex inside of committed marriage relationships so when they get older the have a lasting relationship with someone. Also it's would help killing the sex trade as a young man will pe willing to pay for it via websites or in person, but don't form those long term relationships before it's too late.

> Encouraging people to marry and have committed monogamous relationships Who told you that “the progressive left” opposes that? The major marriage-related shifts in the last century were expanding marriage benefits to everyone (interracial, homosexual) and opposition was distinctly right-wing. Now, perhaps this was code for rolling back equal rights so more women would be pressured to enter into or remain in unsatis…

> Who told you that “the progressive left” opposes that?

> Now, perhaps this was code for…

Yes, what they probably mean by “Encouraging people to marry and have committed monogamous relationships” is “stigmatize, vilify, and legally disincentivize or even prohibit things with don’t fall into ‘traditional’ monogamous (and presumably heterosexual) marriage.” Which many on the progressive left would indeed oppose.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#118
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controversial take, but the reinstitution of gender roles.

Don't reinstitute gender roles, but recognize that while women have made lots of progress men are still strictly held to their historical gender role, and that the only way forward is to open up the roles available for men.

What about historical gender roles for men would cause a lot of men to be lonely now?

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nuclear family was already a postwar, industrial era, departure from traditional family values. Traditional societies almost universally prioritize multigenerational households.

"Multigenerational households" doesn't really describe what we're moving towards, though. We're going from larger to progressively smaller household units. Nuclear families were an unfortunate step of this atomization, and now even they are being broken down further.

We’re not moving towards it at all. Just saying it’s a short-sighted anachronism to claim that nuclear families somehow represent traditional values.

Re: South Korea's middle aged men are dying 'lonely deaths'

#120
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strength of the religious congregations is that they have a built-in forcing function that drives a regular attendance and brings families and individuals together. You must go to avoid hell, drives more attendance than going to avoid possible, future loneliness. I am an ardent atheist, but this aspect of religion makes me wish I too was delusional.

I completely understand your point. But you also have to realize that belief is also a choice, not just a factual agreement on reality. It may surprise you to learn that many of those church attendees are not 100% in agreement. They too have doubts. They choose to believe it for the community. Or the alternative is just too bleak for them.

> But you also have to realize that belief is also a choice

Depends on what you mean by "belief."

I don't think "belief" as "perceived model / understood facts about the universe" is a choice any more than you decide what you see or hear or otherwise perceive. Maybe at margins where things are unclear.

"Belief" in a way-of-being / life path like "I believe that if I live this way, I'll see these results" probably involves a fair bit of choice. This is probably why the word "faith" exists and where it's most useful and may even be why it's associated with religious communities.

(There may be also be a middle ground where one decides reading only religious worldview-affirming material and avoid worldview-eroding discussion is likely to produce best outcomes and has the epistemic boundaries of all the material they take in set accordingly, and I guess that's a 2nd-to-nth order choice about belief)

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