What happens when babies are left to cry it out? • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#581

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 1:39 PM UTC

bennysonething wrote: post #577

TeMPOraL wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. (...) things will get better when the kid grows older. Except when they won't. Our older daughter started having real sleep issues around when she was 1.5 years old. From that point on, every night was one of "those nights nothing works". Her sleeping schedule became quite consistent: roughly 21:00 - 05:00 if she didn't nap during the day, or 23:30 - 05:00 if she…

Does she still have to take them?

Occasionally. Her sleeping patterns have regularized now - though off the drops, she's somewhat more prone to wake around 03:00 seemingly recharged, only to fall back to sleep around 06:00 and then be near-impossible to wake up an hour later - but at 3.5 y.o., we have some success in talking her back into sleep, so it's no longer a big issue.

The drops still come in handy in specific situations that we know will disrupt her sleeping pattern, but that too has become less of an issue. For example, it used to be that car travel in the afternoon would have her sleeping through the whole trip, and then refusing to sleep at night, and it would take a couple of days to get her back to the usual sleeping pattern. But in the last ~6 months, she stopped sleeping so much in the car, and learned to fall asleep if the right ritual is followed.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#582

Post by TchoBeer » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

californical wrote: post #547

sircastor wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is born out of puritan ethics attached to counter-culture “pure” living. Essentially all desired outcomes must be earned through righteous, hard work. Anything short of this effort is cheating.

For me, it’s out of respect for the body’s natural methods of dealing with problems. Obviously there are some cases where it’s useful to interfere with the body’s processes. But in general humans are extremely complex. We tend to think that we have a better understanding of things than we actually do. The human body does things that we still don’t understand fully, and unless there’s an incredibly clear understanding…

If we don't know how the human body works, then surely we don't know that melatonin is better or worse for the body than not taking it. Perhaps it is worse, or perhaps it is better, but either way it has at least one positive effect.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#583

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

RHSman2 wrote: post #579

TeMPOraL wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing, and I'm happy it worked out for you and yours! The implication in your response is, unfortunately, what both my wife and myself secretly fear. I've been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult (and after becoming a father); there's another diagnosed case in my immediate family, and at least one highly probable one. Given how highly hereditary ADHD is, we're afraid our daughters may have it too, and we're…

It is very hard to get a diagnosis pre 6/7 but of course we can see behaviors and project our thoughts. I feel you on the fear and knowing it’s going to be a tougher life. Same with me at ADHD diagnosis.

> It is very hard to get a diagnosis pre 6/7 but of course we can see behaviors and project our thoughts.

We're not planning to get an early diagnosis. I feel it's really too early to tell for sure. We are observing carefully though, and carefully listening to feedback we get from daycare/kindergarten and various child development specialists. So far, we haven't heard anything that isn't somewhat common with children this age.

The "projecting our thoughts" bit is tough, however, as it happens automatically. I try to keep an approach of "assume it's normal at this age until proven otherwise" when dealing with her, and the idea that she could be having executive functioning issues actually makes me more empathetic when she keeps ignoring what we say or gets randomly distracted.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#584

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 1:55 PM UTC

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #437

TeMPOraL wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, solving a cultural problem is the second most difficult thing to do, after changing laws of physics. Or, as some web article I read the other day put it: society is fixed, biology is mutable. And it's not just about two-income households. From my personal experience I can say that, even with one parent working, a poorly sleeping child can bring the parents to the brink of divorce, or depression, or bot…

I don’t know, it doesn’t seem like society is that fixed. It seems pretty malleable over the scale of decades.

It changes, but it's not exactly easy for anyone to predict or control the direction of those changes. Also, this malleability is not what matters in this context - "over the scale of decades" isn't very helpful to the people alive today.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#585

Post by 2000UltraDeluxe » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

thewhitetulip wrote: post #453

Xixi wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to find sources about slavery in Asia. "Slavery in Korea formally existed from antiquity up to the 20th century. Slavery was very important in medieval Korea; it was a major institution. [...] The Korean "nobi" system of slavery peaked between the 15th and 17th centuries and then declined in the 18th and 19th centuries." [1] "The Mongol Empire (1206-1368) had a tremendous impact on slavery across Eurasi…

Mongols weren't exactly 20th and 21st century were they? I had no idea about Korean slavery that existed till the 20th century. Why aren't these parts included in history curriculum?

It sounds like the authorities where you live should have a look at not just the history curriculum but the rest as well. Slavery is very much a contemporary issue and it's been around, globally, since times that predate written history.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#586

Post by naasking » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 2:10 PM UTC

unity1001 wrote: post #475

kaitai wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is way too much romanticization of a false past here in this larger HN discussion. Yeah, sleep patterns were different, and many people slept with their infants. Infant mortality was also higher, as was maternal mortality, and corporal punishment was common. Sleep-deprived women with piles of children were not spending loving moments staring into their babies' eyes; they were smacking the slightly older childre…

> There is way too much romanticization of a false past here in this larger HN discussion Some stuff is evolutionary. Co-sleeping is seen in all mammal species. And its an important part of the group sentiment, including the social support it brings. The lack of it causes anxiety in mammal species. Even domestic cats prefer to take care of their young in groups of mothers until the kittens grow up. > This kid cried e…

Invoking evolutionary biology is not the strong point you seem to think it is. Humans have plenty of characteristics and behaviours that are not present in other mammals, even characteristics that seem to be shared among all other mammals. Our shared heritage with cats didn't lead to our sophisticated language or take us to the moon.

Furthermore, if letting babies cry it out were truly as atrocious a practice as you seem to imply, the signal in the data would be so strong it would be impossible to ignore. The fact that we don't see such an indisputable signal should make you question your assumptions.

> ...that those farts have been causing pain in his abdomen or scrotum. Its amazing how it did not occur to you and instead you let the kid to just 'go through' it.

You seem to be implying that this was somehow wrong. Human newborns need to experience a range of sensations and discomfort to learn how to distinguish what counts as actual pain from mere discomfort. This still happens even into adulthood. Exercise is borderline painful when you're out of shape and then can become pleasurable as your fitness improves. Your brain is constantly adapting and recalibrating.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#587

Post by IG_Semmelweiss » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 2:44 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #467

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad this worked for you. For our kids, they do sports. Heavy duty sports, since age 2-3. Now they basically volunteer to sleep on their own. Bedtime is not a drag. Its a priviledge. And Its glorious. Every kid is different. But they are all energy machines. Starve the machine of energy, or use it all up, and the machine will go idle. .You have to find what sticks.

What kind of sports are good for a two year old, and how do you take them to the sports if both parents work?

You would be surprised what kids can do with a soccer ball at that age.

You do need a nearby fenced playground that attracts other kids, so you can work for hours without having to be in the middle of it.

Their self-service probably begins at earnest at 3 yrs, though, to be fair.

Before that, its all home playing.

But be creative. If the above situation is not for you, then a properly weatherized, large jaccuzzi is also a great option for an old toddler, particularly if you have a retired grandma or a nanny nearby that can watch them as a hawk.

A toddler, or really any kid below 8 yrs will not run out of things to do in a jacuzzi. Particularly if outdoor temp is above 75F

There will be the occasional crying from someone getting pushed while playing soccer, or scared and swallowing water because another toddler pushes the infant down temporarily. Activities that push kids to exert themselves do come with periods of difficulty. That's also energy-draining.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#588

Post by ElevenLathe » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #437

TeMPOraL wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, solving a cultural problem is the second most difficult thing to do, after changing laws of physics. Or, as some web article I read the other day put it: society is fixed, biology is mutable. And it's not just about two-income households. From my personal experience I can say that, even with one parent working, a poorly sleeping child can bring the parents to the brink of divorce, or depression, or bot…

I don’t know, it doesn’t seem like society is that fixed. It seems pretty malleable over the scale of decades.

On the scale of decades, your baby isn't a baby anymore and they can sleep however is convenient for them.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#589

Post by conqueso » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #341

conqueso wrote: post #150

The fact that this is so commonplace in my culture (USA) is frustrating and enrages me. As a parent, it is your evolutionary instinct to comfort a crying infant. They are quite literally helpless and look to caretakers for all their needs. There's a deep seated biological reason it feels bad to ignore it. The fact that it is so uncommon in other cultures should make this obvious. What are the odds that the rest of th…

This is the kind of "it worked for my kid" bullshit that drives me up the wall. With my oldest we bought into comments like this and tried to always comfort him when he was crying. He would not stop crying. We stayed up with him an absurd amount of hours trying every idea in the book to soothe him to sleep and nothing worked. He was probably getting 6 hours of sleep a day at a time when he was supposed to be sleeping…

You're absolutely right that every baby has different needs and I'm glad to hear that you figured out what's best for yours. It was not my intention to suggest that every baby should co-sleep - I meant to address the very commonplace (IMO misplaced) fear that if they do, then they will never leave their parents' bed and develop independence. There are obviously some babies who are ok or even better off sleeping alone. My frustration is with the mainstream acceptance that this is The Proper Way - to the point where families are leaving infants screaming for nights on end in order to "train" them.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#590

Post by crawfordcomeaux » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 3:14 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #414

TeMPOraL wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, solving a cultural problem is the second most difficult thing to do, after changing laws of physics. Or, as some web article I read the other day put it: society is fixed, biology is mutable. And it's not just about two-income households. From my personal experience I can say that, even with one parent working, a poorly sleeping child can bring the parents to the brink of divorce, or depression, or bot…

You can solve cultural problems on a micro level. I know many couples that have merged into larger multi-partner families, sometimes as individual couples, sometimes as polycules, regardless, the commune is back lol, and just my own observation it seems an ideal way to raise kids. There's always someone around, couples can take their own time to go on dates quite regularly, the kids grow up with lots of people around…

I have one kid and we are going thus route. The nuclear family is dysfunctional by design. Partner and I both have been with them fulltime throughout their life, living off savings instead of working. This opened my eyes to how very little men are taught about caring for people and how much nonsense I was taught. Nurturing a little person from a perspective informed by anarchism reveals a whole lot of backwards thinking. We've just spent 5 days with 3 people who can actually handle facing the childhood trauma that gets stimulated through allowing a little person to actually make choices for themselves and the difference is astounding.

We can spend time together without interruption and without it being after they're asleep. There are people to help cook and clean, do so joyfully, and play and dance and sing and cuddle.

Why you're getting down voted, I have no idea. Community- oriented approaches to families, no matter what society says or does or thinks, are what humans have done for millenia.