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What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

bbc.com

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Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#531

Post by philliphaydon »

FrankyHollywood wrote: post #394
firemanx wrote: post #336

Read the article, and many of the comments here. I have a hard time squaring a lot of the hard and fast rules against my own experience. Certainly one persons life can’t detract from large scale statistics. However, I have 6 children. They have all responded to methods of behavioral training in wildly different ways. My oldest two could not do sleep training. 10 months of trying for almost every night and they did no…

> fall asleep right away if around someone this... with my first kid I didn't know how to handle, advice was 'to leave it cry to sleep', but it felt like torture to me, inhumane, letting it cry for so long. A little baby just doesn't want to be alone. I discovered just sitting in the same room, reading something on my tablet was enough to fall a sleep after like 20 minutes, 90% of the time. And yes, there are those n…

> That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. … things will get better when the kid grows older.

My first daughter would wake, have a bottle, fall asleep within a few minutes for 3-4 hours. Wake, bottle, fall asleep for 3-4 hours.

The first year was sooooooo easy. The 2nd year I wake, make bottle, hand it to her, she drinks and falls asleep.

She’s 4 now and can’t stay in a room alone during the day or night. That’s harder because now I can’t go toilet because she will scream at the top of her lungs until someone is in the room. But sleeping is me staying in the room for 5-20 minutes till she’s asleep.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#532

Post by unity1001 »

shaklee3 wrote: post #520
unity1001 wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you not read the rest of the thread? There are a ton of comments in that direction, but hey: https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp.... > In their recent paper published in JCPP, Bilgin and Wolke (2020a) argue that leaving an infant to ‘cry it out’, rather than responding to the child’s cries, had no adverse effects on mother–infant attachment at 18 months. This finding opposes evidence acro…

ah, yes! link to a group of people who didn't like the outcome of a study, so they wrote about it with links to older studies that the more comprehensive one already addressed. of course, said people didn't bother to do their own study, but needed to get it off their chests how mad it makes them that the newer/more data-driven studies go against their instincts.

> ah, yes! link to a group of people who didn't like the outcome of a study, so they wrote about it

That study criticizes the methods and samples of the study you trust in. Its something fundamental, not 'opinionated'.

> data-driven studies go against their instincts.

What part of a 40 or 200 sample set is 'data driven'. How many of those children are 40 years old. How many of them have passed through the chaos of teenage years and now experiencing their first problems in work life, social relationships or relationship with their spouse.

...

Its amazing how people immediately forget any evolutionary biology or behavioral science lessons they have taken during the course of their lives when it involves self-interest. Simple behaviors that entirety of mammal species rely on as evolutionary behaviors for survival are just 'maladaptive practices' when self-interest is involved.

...

Strong personal interest seem to cause strong bias in this topic. I understand the need for the parents who use such destructive practices to be able to get some sleep while they are raising infants in this modern society that does not leave any time for childrearing. But neither anyone like me empathizing with it nor the circumstances of modern society can negate the evolutionary behaviors and their effects. The parents who are in such a situation must find another way to address the situation than relying on what increasingly seems to be anti-humane advocacy.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#533

Post by komali2 »

lazide wrote: post #521
komali2 wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I'm countering the accusations of misogyny with "no, we're talking about the flaws of capitalism." Consider that many families in the USA have two parents, both working multiple jobs, to make ends meet. To me, one of the most important things in my hopefully 80 years is family, and so I get sad when I see people forced to trade that little time we get already, for work.

Having kids and raising a family is work too - really, really hard work. And sometimes work that doesn’t ever pay off, for reasons well outside of anyone’s control. There is a reason that spousal and child abuse was so much higher then. There is no perfect option here.

The way you right makes me think you're trying to say we disagree about something lol but for the life of me I can't figure out what.

> so much higher then

When?

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#534

Post by shaklee3 »

unity1001 wrote: post #532
shaklee3 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah, yes! link to a group of people who didn't like the outcome of a study, so they wrote about it with links to older studies that the more comprehensive one already addressed. of course, said people didn't bother to do their own study, but needed to get it off their chests how mad it makes them that the newer/more data-driven studies go against their instincts.

> ah, yes! link to a group of people who didn't like the outcome of a study, so they wrote about it That study criticizes the methods and samples of the study you trust in. Its something fundamental, not 'opinionated'. > data-driven studies go against their instincts. What part of a 40 or 200 sample set is 'data driven'. How many of those children are 40 years old. How many of them have passed through the chaos of te…

at some point you have to realize that you understand infants less than the parents using this method, and certainly less than the ones doing the studies. you argument is equivalent to saying we should stick to arranged marriages only because that's how it's always been done and it clearly worked for many cultures.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#535

Post by shaklee3 »

ryanSrich wrote: post #276
johndhi wrote: post #177

Having an 11 month old baby I have a few observations: 1 - parents have strong feelings on this topic and sleep is important. 2 - different kids/families seem to have majorly different sleep experiences in the first year 3 - I am skeptical of the literature in this field. Infant sleep feels measurable so it feels like studying it should be feasible, but we're forgetting these are little humans, not plants or bacteria…

We have two kids. One is 3, and the other is 1. Our first was an amazing sleeper. After the first few months, she would mostly sleep in a basinet the entire night. She transitioned to a crib easily, and now sleeps in a bed for about 12 hours per night without getting up. Our second on the other hand was a complete nightmare. Crying for almost the entire night for months on end. He eventually settled down a bit, but w…

same, except our second we did cry it out and it worked like a charm. he's now 6 and never wakes up during the night.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#536

Post by lazide »

komali2 wrote: post #533
lazide wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having kids and raising a family is work too - really, really hard work. And sometimes work that doesn’t ever pay off, for reasons well outside of anyone’s control. There is a reason that spousal and child abuse was so much higher then. There is no perfect option here.

The way you right makes me think you're trying to say we disagree about something lol but for the life of me I can't figure out what. > so much higher then When?

When it wasn’t two parents working full time to support everyone (aka the post WW2 years until what, about the 90’s).

I’m disagreeing with what seems to be nostalgia, or a call to a different type of circumstance. I’m just noting, it had major drawbacks then too. Lots of stay at home moms drinking themselves into a stupor being one.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#537

Post by XorNot »

jasonhansel wrote: post #333
conqueso wrote: post #150

The fact that this is so commonplace in my culture (USA) is frustrating and enrages me. As a parent, it is your evolutionary instinct to comfort a crying infant. They are quite literally helpless and look to caretakers for all their needs. There's a deep seated biological reason it feels bad to ignore it. The fact that it is so uncommon in other cultures should make this obvious. What are the odds that the rest of th…

> It is very much possible to co-sleep and then gradually transition them to their own bed. Isn't co-sleeping (as in bed-sharing) discouraged in the US, at least for newborns, because of the risk of SIDS? To quote the AAP: > AAP recommends that parents sleep in the same room – but not in the same bed as a baby, preferably for at least the first six months. Source: https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/20…

SIDS however is probably genetic and little we do has made a difference (for example, when I was a baby the advice was to sleep children on their stomachs - it's literally the opposite now)[1]

[1] https://www.schn.health.nsw.gov.au/news/articles/2022/05/wor...

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#538

Post by weakfortress »

pnutjam wrote: post #321
weakfortress wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be wrong. I suppose it's anecdata but a member of my family who works in pedatrics sees this regularly unfortunately. Usually it's these new-age parents that think co-sleeping is somehow beneficial. You fall into a deep enough sleep, it takes almost no time at all to seriously injure or kill your child. Frankly, co-sleeping with a baby is irresponsibility of the highest form. It may have worked for the GP b…

I coslept with all 7 of my children.

The downvotes are by new age pseudo-intellectuals that frequent this forum. Congratulations. Medical science says you're not smart.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#539

Post by unity1001 »

shaklee3 wrote: post #534
unity1001 wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ah, yes! link to a group of people who didn't like the outcome of a study, so they wrote about it That study criticizes the methods and samples of the study you trust in. Its something fundamental, not 'opinionated'. > data-driven studies go against their instincts. What part of a 40 or 200 sample set is 'data driven'. How many of those children are 40 years old. How many of them have passed through the chaos of te…

at some point you have to realize that you understand infants less than the parents using this method, and certainly less than the ones doing the studies. you argument is equivalent to saying we should stick to arranged marriages only because that's how it's always been done and it clearly worked for many cultures.

> you argument is equivalent to saying we should stick to arranged marriages only because that's how it's always been done and it clearly worked for many cultures.

Arranged marriages are in no way related to deep behavioral traits of mammal evolution.

> at some point you have to realize that you understand infants less than the parents using this method

Anyone who knows any adult who suffered any measure of neglect in childhood would 'know' otherwise. Especially the adults who have been neglected as infants.

I understand your viewpoint and sentiment. But I do reiterate that those do not negate evolution.

I think we discussed enough in this thread. I'll bail out of this discussion now. Thanks.

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