Live data from Hacker News

What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

bbc.com

511–520 of 644 posts

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's French, too There are great behavioral and cultural differences in between the south of France and the North. > And you're demonstrating a sheer amount of ignorance with your rush to judgement here. Im not. Co-sleeping, close proximity, touching are evolutionary traits of all mammals including humans. The majority of the mammal infants also cry to their parents and their parents attend them. If the cries are n…

>There are great behavioral and cultural differences in between the south of France and the North. So you agree it's not just the US doing it, despite your lambasting only that country multiple times. >That's not what the child will instinctively interpret. As far as he is concerned, he is either abandoned and his life is at risk, or the parents are prioritizing their other children for survival. Cite your source.

> So you agree it's not just the US doing it

No, I don't. A lot of things that were manufactured in the US were exported into countries that were under its influence. Rich, Anglophile segments in a country adopting a behavior from the US because it suits their preferences does not make it a national paradigm.

> Cite your source.

There are various comments from others in this thread which explain that problem in detail. In contrast, your perspective of 'nothing happening' resides on a single study made with 43 children.

(edit - posting the counterpoint here just in case - it was a google search away)

https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp....

> In their recent paper published in JCPP, Bilgin and Wolke (2020a) argue that leaving an infant to ‘cry it out’, rather than responding to the child’s cries, had no adverse effects on mother–infant attachment at 18 months. This finding opposes evidence across a wide range of scientific fields. Here, we outline several concerns with the article and argue against some of the authors’ strong claims, which have already gained media attention, including a report on the NHS website. We suggest that the authors’ conclusions should be considered one piece of a larger scientific whole, where ‘cry it out’ seems, overall, to be of detriment to both attachment and development. Crucially, we are concerned that this study has issues regarding power and other analytical decisions. More generally, we fear that the authors have overstated their findings and we hope that members of the public do not alter their parenting behaviours in line with such claims without further research into this controversial topic.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#512
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is way too much romanticization of a false past here in this larger HN discussion. Yeah, sleep patterns were different, and many people slept with their infants. Infant mortality was also higher, as was maternal mortality, and corporal punishment was common. Sleep-deprived women with piles of children were not spending loving moments staring into their babies' eyes; they were smacking the slightly older childre…

> There is way too much romanticization of a false past here in this larger HN discussion Some stuff is evolutionary. Co-sleeping is seen in all mammal species. And its an important part of the group sentiment, including the social support it brings. The lack of it causes anxiety in mammal species. Even domestic cats prefer to take care of their young in groups of mothers until the kittens grow up. > This kid cried e…

you made a lot of claims with no evidence. please cite where it creates anxiety.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

except if you read the article and study that has meaningful data shows it's a net positive. so despite your preconceived notions of a baby crying being mentally damaging, there is no evidence to suggest that. on the contrary, everyone is happier and gets more sleep.

> except if you read the article and study that has meaningful data shows it's a net positive

The study was made on ~40 children. That is not a good group for anything. And there are absolutely no long-term studies on this. There are a lot of other comments that discuss that angle in this thread.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing a 9-month-old spending 15 minutes calming themselves down before falling asleep to physical abuse is laughably absurd. A big problem with this "debate" is that people conjure images of newborn babies being left to cry for hours, when what is actually predominantly practiced is older infants 6-12 months old being allowed to cry for less than half an hour. After being fed and given a clean diaper and a safe p…

“A little rap on the knuckles” is less severe than full on beating, but it’s on the gradient of physical violence. Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging. And I’m not sure a baby has the same perspective on 15 minutes as the average adult. I’m pretty sure most adults are walking around with unresolved emotional trauma issues that do not serve them, or those around them,…

unkind and damaging is the opposite of what the latest studies say. did you do your own studies?

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is way too much romanticization of a false past here in this larger HN discussion Some stuff is evolutionary. Co-sleeping is seen in all mammal species. And its an important part of the group sentiment, including the social support it brings. The lack of it causes anxiety in mammal species. Even domestic cats prefer to take care of their young in groups of mothers until the kittens grow up. > This kid cried e…

you made a lot of claims with no evidence. please cite where it creates anxiety.

Have you not read the rest of the thread? There are a ton of comments in that direction, but hey:

https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp....

> In their recent paper published in JCPP, Bilgin and Wolke (2020a) argue that leaving an infant to ‘cry it out’, rather than responding to the child’s cries, had no adverse effects on mother–infant attachment at 18 months. This finding opposes evidence across a wide range of scientific fields. Here, we outline several concerns with the article and argue against some of the authors’ strong claims, which have already gained media attention, including a report on the NHS website. We suggest that the authors’ conclusions should be considered one piece of a larger scientific whole, where ‘cry it out’ seems, overall, to be of detriment to both attachment and development. Crucially, we are concerned that this study has issues regarding power and other analytical decisions. More generally, we fear that the authors have overstated their findings and we hope that members of the public do not alter their parenting behaviours in line with such claims without further research into this controversial topic.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except if you read the article and study that has meaningful data shows it's a net positive. so despite your preconceived notions of a baby crying being mentally damaging, there is no evidence to suggest that. on the contrary, everyone is happier and gets more sleep.

> except if you read the article and study that has meaningful data shows it's a net positive The study was made on ~40 children. That is not a good group for anything. And there are absolutely no long-term studies on this. There are a lot of other comments that discuss that angle in this thread.

it literally says 235 babies and external factors were controlled for. you didn't even read the article you're responding to.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#517
https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp....

> In their recent paper published in JCPP, Bilgin and Wolke (2020a) argue that leaving an infant to ‘cry it out’, rather than responding to the child’s cries, had no adverse effects on mother–infant attachment at 18 months. This finding opposes evidence across a wide range of scientific fields. Here, we outline several concerns with the article and argue against some of the authors’ strong claims, which have already gained media attention, including a report on the NHS website. We suggest that the authors’ conclusions should be considered one piece of a larger scientific whole, where ‘cry it out’ seems, overall, to be of detriment to both attachment and development. Crucially, we are concerned that this study has issues regarding power and other analytical decisions. More generally, we fear that the authors have overstated their findings and we hope that members of the public do not alter their parenting behaviours in line with such claims without further research into this controversial topic.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> except if you read the article and study that has meaningful data shows it's a net positive The study was made on ~40 children. That is not a good group for anything. And there are absolutely no long-term studies on this. There are a lot of other comments that discuss that angle in this thread.

it literally says 235 babies and external factors were controlled for. you didn't even read the article you're responding to.

Here is a formal rebuttal from other people:

https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp....

> In their recent paper published in JCPP, Bilgin and Wolke (2020a) argue that leaving an infant to ‘cry it out’, rather than responding to the child’s cries, had no adverse effects on mother–infant attachment at 18 months. This finding opposes evidence across a wide range of scientific fields. Here, we outline several concerns with the article and argue against some of the authors’ strong claims, which have already gained media attention, including a report on the NHS website. We suggest that the authors’ conclusions should be considered one piece of a larger scientific whole, where ‘cry it out’ seems, overall, to be of detriment to both attachment and development. Crucially, we are concerned that this study has issues regarding power and other analytical decisions. More generally, we fear that the authors have overstated their findings and we hope that members of the public do not alter their parenting behaviours in line with such claims without further research into this controversial topic.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are great behavioral and cultural differences in between the south of France and the North. So you agree it's not just the US doing it, despite your lambasting only that country multiple times. >That's not what the child will instinctively interpret. As far as he is concerned, he is either abandoned and his life is at risk, or the parents are prioritizing their other children for survival. Cite your source.

> So you agree it's not just the US doing it No, I don't. A lot of things that were manufactured in the US were exported into countries that were under its influence. Rich, Anglophile segments in a country adopting a behavior from the US because it suits their preferences does not make it a national paradigm. > Cite your source. There are various comments from others in this thread which explain that problem in detai…

>No, I don't. A lot of things that were manufactured in the US were exported into countries that were under its influence.

Again, demonstrating your ignorance. Sleep training is based on "Le Pause". It's imported.

>There are various comments from others in this thread which explain that problem in detail.

And there have been countless comments in this thread, all citing evidence that there is no difference in a child who co-slept or was sleep-trained beyond the age of 6. There simply is not.

>In contrast, your perspective of 'nothing happening' resides on a single study made with 43 children.

I have never cited that study, but thank you for putting words into my mouth.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you made a lot of claims with no evidence. please cite where it creates anxiety.

Have you not read the rest of the thread? There are a ton of comments in that direction, but hey: https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp.... > In their recent paper published in JCPP, Bilgin and Wolke (2020a) argue that leaving an infant to ‘cry it out’, rather than responding to the child’s cries, had no adverse effects on mother–infant attachment at 18 months. This finding opposes evidence acro…

ah, yes! link to a group of people who didn't like the outcome of a study, so they wrote about it with links to older studies that the more comprehensive one already addressed. of course, said people didn't bother to do their own study, but needed to get it off their chests how mad it makes them that the newer/more data-driven studies go against their instincts.
Post reply on HN