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What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

bbc.com

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Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#211

Post by jjtheblunt »

retrac wrote: post #208
Insanity wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crate training is a good thing (imo) but should be done properly. Not just sticking them in a crate overnight in another room and ignoring them. Our dog is crate trained, which makes travelling with him way easier for example. (He is 1 year old now, so at night he just walks into his crate whenever he feels tired. We don’t have to put him in his crate anymore). You have to make sure they associate positive experience…

We picked up a young stray. Too rambunctious to be left out overnight. Well-behaved generally but around 3 am he jumps on top of us and wants to play. Not working. A crate though? Seems barbaric. But we did it gently, in slowly increasing increments. If he became distressed, we let him out. I think that's probably key. Oh, sleepy time? Let's try to get him to do it in the crate for an hour. Then a few hours. Now, aro…

that last paragraph is exactly what was wrong in our first few nights and which we changed by moving the crate into the main bedroom with us, and then there was no need for the crate door to be closed. everything seemed harmonious (hence my assertion the original distant part of house nonsense was unnatural isolation).

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#212

Post by jjulius »

afandian wrote: post #205
sanderjd wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing a 9-month-old spending 15 minutes calming themselves down before falling asleep to physical abuse is laughably absurd. A big problem with this "debate" is that people conjure images of newborn babies being left to cry for hours, when what is actually predominantly practiced is older infants 6-12 months old being allowed to cry for less than half an hour. After being fed and given a clean diaper and a safe p…

“A little rap on the knuckles” is less severe than full on beating, but it’s on the gradient of physical violence. Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging. And I’m not sure a baby has the same perspective on 15 minutes as the average adult. I’m pretty sure most adults are walking around with unresolved emotional trauma issues that do not serve them, or those around them,…

>Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging.

I just commented elsewhere and asked you what your understanding of "sleep training" or "crying it out" entails, but I think this answers it for me - you're ignorant to what actually happens.

You do not teach a child that their call for help will be unanswered. You observe them closely as they wake up, listen to how they're crying (each parent knows what their child's cries mean), listen for the highs and the lows of the crying, watch them as they try to learn how to put themselves back to sleep. But you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT abandon them. You go in frequently at first, and slowly extend the amount of time you give them before going in as "sleep training" progresses. You slowly give them more and more space to figure it out, but you still always go in at some point, when they need it. You are giving them the space to learn something while still being there for them.

To suggest otherwise, and judge others as abusive you have been doing repeatedly in this thread, is ignorant and uncalled for. It's not constructive, and it's rude.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#213

Post by malfist »

So what does happen when babies are left to cry it out? I read over a dozen paragraphs and it never told me. Just told me about a hypothesis and that some people are shocked at other cultures.

It spent most of that time talking about outrage by online communities instead of just giving me information. Terrible journalism.

It told me that there were two studies and how many babies were involved, but not the findings of the study. Garbage.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#214

Post by vmilner »

pc86 wrote: post #200
vmilner wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Uk school was still doing collective punishment beatings (“Who spoke?” (No-one replies) (30 boys get caned) ) in the early 80s.

Abuse in a school setting 40+ years ago is not all that surprising.

I think early 80s is when it becomes tricky to _legally_ beat kids in schools in the uk. I suspect collective punishment was actually illegal long before that but it wasn’t tested in courts.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#215

Post by themaninthedark »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #160
themaninthedark wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two boys 9 and 3. Oldest co-slept with us until his brother was born so until 6yo, even now sometimes he wants to come back to our bed. The youngest we put in the same room as our oldest after about a year, he rarely wants to sleep with us. When they were co-sleeping with us, they would still wake up and cry at night from things other then hunger. Including, I rolled over into my parent and it surprised me so…

I think you are right and I'm just angry at the behavior toward co-sleeping. In the end, every family should do what fits them. My request is to stop blaming co-sleeping and accept it as a valuable option, same value as sleep training.

I understand, it is frustrating seeing people blame and reject things are useful just because they are not used tho them or are foreign to their culture.

Part of the reason we co-slept is because my wife was breastfeeding and it would have been unfair for her to have to get up, leave the room to take care of the baby. Also, I am good at adapting and quickly learnt to sleep through hunger cries...so probably for the best we were not doing the swap schedule.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#216

Post by dragonwriter »

lazide wrote: post #155
dragonwriter wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering nearly zero Americans are of healthy weight right now (obesity rate over 42%) Apparently, “nearly zero” are mathematically literate, too.

Obesity is 'you're going to die an early death because you're overweight'. It is the polar opposite of a healthy weight, but there is a lot of red in the gap. You might not be aware of that? It's one of those uncomfortable truths no one likes talking about. Even Dr's won't usually mention it to patients. 73.6% of American Adults over 20 years old are overweight. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity-adult-17-1…

> Obesity is 'you're going to die an early death because you're overweight'.

No, its not. Even morbidly obese doesn’t mean that, though it statistically correlates with a greater reduction in expected lifespan.

> 73.6% of American Adults over 20 years old are overweight. [...] I didn't correlate to eating disorders resulting in people being under weight - I've seen a decent amount of that too. Probably 5 to maybe even 10%.

1.6% of adults over 20, actually, using 2018 numbers. [0]

At any rate, even if it was your 5-10%, not enough to make the “at a healthy weight” number close to 0 (even if underweight was relevant in context of being more likely to suffocate an infant, which I would hazard a guess it is not.)

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/underweight-adult-17-18...

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#217

Post by encoderer »

conqueso wrote: post #150

The fact that this is so commonplace in my culture (USA) is frustrating and enrages me. As a parent, it is your evolutionary instinct to comfort a crying infant. They are quite literally helpless and look to caretakers for all their needs. There's a deep seated biological reason it feels bad to ignore it. The fact that it is so uncommon in other cultures should make this obvious. What are the odds that the rest of th…

For my second kid it worked wonderfully. There was one hard night. After that he had, for the first time in his young life, the ability to put himself back to sleep at night when he woke up. That was a gift for him as well as us. We used the Ferber method.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#218

Post by oskarpearson »

sanderjd wrote: post #199
afandian wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents' generation (in the UK) were physically beaten as children. It was a normal part of parenting and part of school. My hope is that one day we will consider this emotionally abusive behaviour as seriously as we we now look at physical abuse. Though I don't hold out much hope. Especially as there are still some people holding out for the right to hit their children even now.

Comparing a 9-month-old spending 15 minutes calming themselves down before falling asleep to physical abuse is laughably absurd. A big problem with this "debate" is that people conjure images of newborn babies being left to cry for hours, when what is actually predominantly practiced is older infants 6-12 months old being allowed to cry for less than half an hour. After being fed and given a clean diaper and a safe p…

From the article:

> For others, it can be hours of crying, even to the point of vomiting (common enough to be a frequent topic of conversation on sleep-training forums and addressed by baby sleep books including Ferber's

The article also includes a reference to 2-3 hours.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#219

Post by somrand0 »

afandian wrote: post #173
conqueso wrote: post #150

The fact that this is so commonplace in my culture (USA) is frustrating and enrages me. As a parent, it is your evolutionary instinct to comfort a crying infant. They are quite literally helpless and look to caretakers for all their needs. There's a deep seated biological reason it feels bad to ignore it. The fact that it is so uncommon in other cultures should make this obvious. What are the odds that the rest of th…

My parents' generation (in the UK) were physically beaten as children. It was a normal part of parenting and part of school. My hope is that one day we will consider this emotionally abusive behaviour as seriously as we we now look at physical abuse. Though I don't hold out much hope. Especially as there are still some people holding out for the right to hit their children even now.

well yea, because your parents were essentially slaves, the property of higher elite classes. I'm pointing to the class relationship, nothing specific to your parents.

I wonder if such practices were used in schools reserved for royalty and other nobles in the UK

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#220

Post by afandian »

jjulius wrote: post #212
afandian wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“A little rap on the knuckles” is less severe than full on beating, but it’s on the gradient of physical violence. Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging. And I’m not sure a baby has the same perspective on 15 minutes as the average adult. I’m pretty sure most adults are walking around with unresolved emotional trauma issues that do not serve them, or those around them,…

>Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging. I just commented elsewhere and asked you what your understanding of "sleep training" or "crying it out" entails, but I think this answers it for me - you're ignorant to what actually happens. You do not teach a child that their call for help will be unanswered. You observe them closely as they wake up, listen to how they're crying…

I apologise, I’ve not read literature on it, or the particular methodology you describe. I’m not judging you.

That said, whatever the merits of a structured approach, for every parent that diligently follows them, there are others that are less careful. And I’ve met them.

I’m responding to sentiments like “I just ignore them and they go to sleep eventually”, “don’t go and check, he only wants attention” from other parents, and other reports from someone I know who is a midwife.

The model we followed was “Hand in hand”, which resonated for us. And we were saddened that that philosophy does not seem to be very mainstream amongst parents I have met.

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