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What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

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Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#111

Post by jrochkind1 »

darrmit wrote: post #12

I'm more interested in the long-term psychological effects of sleep training and how it affects a child's perception of "secure attachment" [1]. We sleep trained our oldest and did not our youngest and their personalities couldn't be more different. Of course, this may be entirely unrelated, but it's still something my wife and I have wondered about as we've learned more about it. [1] https://www.betterhelp.com/advic…

The OP overview did mention some studies. (The OP overview is a really good model for a popularly-accessible summary of research on a complex topic! it lists so much stuff!)

I'm not saying this necessarily should eliminate all worry you have about attachment (personally sleep-training seems like a bad idea to me too; I'm not a parent however), but as far as what research is available, from the OP:

> Of the few studies that have looked at the short- to longer-term outcomes of sleep training, none have found an effect on a baby's attachment or mental health. Hiscock's study, for example, the largest and longest longitudinal study done on sleep training, found sleep-trained children were no more likely to be insecurely attached to their caregiver at six years of age than their peers. (Experts like Hiscock say they aren't aware of any studies that look at potential long-term effects of cold-turkey cry-it-out, just at modified extinction. They also examined healthy babies at least six months old. So these findings aren't necessarily applicable to infants trained at younger ages, or in other ways.)

> Like other longitudinal studies, Hiscock's lost touch with a number of families when it was time for the final follow-up: 101 of the original 326. That means it is theoretically possible that the sleep training did affect some children in either a negative or positive way long-term, but that their experiences weren't captured. It's more likely, though, that any effects of a single intervention simply "washed out" after six years, says Hiscock.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230830539_Five-Year...

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#112

Post by lars512 »

metabagel wrote: post #110

Having read "The Boy Who was Raised as a Dog", which goes into a fair amount of detail regarding attachment and attachment disorders, letting an infant "cry it out" strikes me as child abuse. Infants have no control over their environment, and crying is almost their only way to communicate. I'm not enthusiastic about sleep training either - the gradual, controlled removal of sleep time emotional support by the parent…

The article mentions this 5y study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22966034/) which included a sleep training intervention at 7m, and found "no evidence of differences between intervention and control families for any outcome".

It sounds like the main concern would be starting sleep training too early (sub 6 months), or using it in unusual situations where there are already attachment issues.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#113

Post by greggarious »

I had an intense reaction to this story.

I knew someone who was born in a Romanian orphanage who was "left to cry it out"... she was forever traumatized in ways just as damaging as one terrible moment, but not discussed since no one ever made a hit lifetime television series about those who abuse via inaction.

There are people who made it through the fall of both the Nazis and the Berlin Wall who should not have access to so much as a houseplant who continue to influence young minds to this day, and it will forever keep me up at night that I can't just turn off my phone and correct that error like I'd like to.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#114

Post by sublinear »

Patrol8394 wrote: post #104

My wife and I did not sleep trained our kids. They co-slept with us, they were happy we were able to sleep through the night. Eventually they transitioned into their own bed no problem. Our neighbors will let their baby cry like forever, it was excruciating and imo pointless.

Sometimes a solution is so obvious it's sure to get ignored.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#115

Post by themaninthedark »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #91
themaninthedark wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how much experience you have with babies, yes they cry for a reason. Sometimes that reason is they need/want something, sometimes it is because they are gassy and their stomach hurts. Sometimes it is because they are tired, in which case it may be preferential to help them learn that they should sleep when tired and not cry and keep themselves awake. Also you talk about parental selfishness. Parents have…

Of course, but this is talking about extreme cases. Co-sleeping and sleep training are day-to-day instead.

Par of what I am getting at is that stress builds up over time but sometimes very quickly. Especially for new parents. And you can not predict how the parents will react mentally to this stress.

When we label things, such as postpartum depression, we can discuss the issue. But I think that sometimes we forget that we have to make changes to stop having the same outcomes. When a new parent ends up killing their child(ren), it is easy for us to say, "Well they had postpartum depression" but what have we gained as a society except a way to blame or assign the tragedy. Demanding the person who is in the midst of postpartum depression to identify that and then seek help is absolutely insane. We as a society need to look at how and what pressure we put on others as well as be able to have open conversation about the stresses in order to prevent deaths.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#116

Post by partiallypro »

trilbyglens wrote: post #42

Didn't sleep train and now our 9yo expects to come to our bed every damned night. Big regret.

This is going to sound harsh but I think some bad habits like this are gotten rid of when their friend group finds out and makes fun of them for it.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#117

Post by mrsubletbot »

jjulius wrote: post #81
mrsubletbot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife and I co-sleep with our kids (2 & 4). I get just about a full sleep every night. If the kids wake up I imagine it's much less work to roll over and cuddle with them as opposed to getting out of bed, going to a separate room and then comforting them. Co-sleeping gets bonus points for giving me just a little extra sweet time with my kids, because before I know it they will be older and wanting their own space.…

Forgive me here; I'm approaching this from a place of ignorance and curiosity, and I hope I don't overstep any personal boundaries - both for you and myself! My wife and I had many reasons for why we ultimately chose not to co-sleep. One of those reasons was our sex life. I don't pretend to know what the "norm"/average is, but it's frequent for us, 3-4 times per week, and at the risk of TMI, it can be fairly... invol…

Ha! Perfectly reasonable question. Well, we just about never have sex in our room, but luckily for us our house is large enough with plenty of other venues for intercourse. The hardest thing for both me and my wife is the fact that we can't just roll over and fall asleep afterwards. I do miss those days!

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#118

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #103
xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's mangled because humans are complex. A lot of the risks are from activities or issues that cause sleep problems -- alcohol, drugs, sleep apnea. What is the likelihood that a baby gets smothered? These all factor in. The risk decreases with age. Co-sleeping, generally, is much more dangerous than sleeping on their own in a proper crib. If it works for you, great. Some people take extraordinary steps to ensure it's…

I agree, but I disagree with your statement about being way safe. Research doesn't account for what happens when baby is in the crib and it doesn't sleep. So sure, you might have avoided SIDS, but the baby might die because the parent fell asleep while standing with the baby in their arms. P. S. Again sorry for my tone, I'm super angry for how the entire medicine treats Co-sleeping like a horrific thing So the resear…

I don't think hypotheticals are very useful. A sleep deprived parent is a risk in any scenario. It's a moot point.

The only point I was making is that it is generally agreed upon that a crib is safe for babies to sleep in. They can't fall out, get smothered, etc.

Medicine treats co-sleeping horrifically because, by any measure, it's less safe. Few medical professionals will recommend, generally, anything associated with such risk.

If you choose to co-sleep, I believe you should simply accept the risks. We can't pretend there are none. We can't reasonably ask the medical community to stop being harsh.

Perhaps co-sleeping hasn't had it's "fed is best" moment that we've seen with bottle v breast, but I'm not sure it ever will. It's simply more risky.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#119

Post by pwdisswordfish9 »

Patrol8394 wrote: post #104

My wife and I did not sleep trained our kids. They co-slept with us, they were happy we were able to sleep through the night. Eventually they transitioned into their own bed no problem. Our neighbors will let their baby cry like forever, it was excruciating and imo pointless.

What do you mean? Hard to understand what you're describing.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#120

Post by mrsubletbot »

hnuser847 wrote: post #108
mrsubletbot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife and I co-sleep with our kids (2 & 4). I get just about a full sleep every night. If the kids wake up I imagine it's much less work to roll over and cuddle with them as opposed to getting out of bed, going to a separate room and then comforting them. Co-sleeping gets bonus points for giving me just a little extra sweet time with my kids, because before I know it they will be older and wanting their own space.…

We started co-sleeping with our son at first wake at around 8 months, and have been doing that continuously for the past 7 months or so (basically he sleeps with us in bed between 2 and 6ish AM). I've enjoyed the arrangement but my wife is tired of it, due to getting kicked and punched all night long. On top of that, she's 32 weeks pregnant and really needs the sleep. Does your wife share your enthusiasm for co-sleep…

That sounds rough! From what my wife has let on, third trimester sleep is tough any way you slice it. My kids kick me sometimes, but usually I can just move them over and resume my slumber. It helps that we took two mattresses (a king and a twin) and pushed them together, so there is plenty of room for the four of us.

And to answer your question, my wife is even more gung-ho than I about co-sleeping. She actually had to convince me to start doing it in the first place, because I shared the concern of lot of commenters here with regards to SIDS.

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