Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job • Hacker News Board

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#321

Post by anon50118810 » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

doix wrote: post #101

anon50118810 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be great if you could share your insights about finding work at these non-tech companies, either here or at my recent post at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34108841 . I've applied to far over 50 places and would be satisfied with that sort of thing at least for the near term.

You're looking for a remote job. The sort of companies I'm thinking of most likely won't do remote. Maybe it's different now in the era of COVID, but I suspect they'll still be "asses in chairs, look busy" type places. Go on monster.com (or any other job search site), type in "programmer" (or " programmer" if you only have experience in a single language) and start applying. If you don't recognize the company name or…

Yes, remote only if at all possible. I'm surprised that non-tech companies care about looking busy, since tech is a cost center for them and I would guess they're hiring grudgingly at best.

I've looked mainly on LinkedIn and some smaller job boards, not Monster or Indeed or Dice or any of those.

Another thing is that I'm avoiding complex applications, the ones where you're immediately asked to create an account and once you do they ask you for a ton of information like every job you've had in your life. Are the jobs you're talking about often gated behind these applications?

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#322

Post by w10-1 » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

Kudo's for reminding everyone of the idea of hard truths and the kind practice of sharing them.

We could all get better at facing unpleasant reality; so much more damage is done by being avoidant, mainly to our own character.

The key question is why recruiting is maladaptive, whether the market is hot or cold.

The answer lies in why no one has really addressed the question: recruiting is spoiled by a culture and practice of secrecy.

The goal is to be fair and avoid recruits gaming the system, but the practice ends up nurturing toxic judgments, tending towards the paranoid and the extreme. Paranoia excludes supposedly non-compliant untrustable people evidenced in resume gaps, and extremism excludes supposedly toxic people evidenced by ancient social media posts.

Like defense procurement, the secrecy that is necessary ends up concealing and preserving toxic practices. In both cases, programmatic application of objective standards could dis-intermediate, so the recruiters/procurement bureaucracies resist and claim essential wisdom.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#323

Post by Bahamut » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

Love most of the advice I see here, but there's a few quibbles I have here.

> You’re going to have to grind Leetcode. Yes, even the dynamic programming problems.

One trend I've been seeing is the MANGAs have been moving away from leetcode crap - in my org at one of them, I think almost the entire org is against leetcode questions as an insufficient form of candidate assessment.

> Come up with a more, uh, positive reason for why you’re interviewing instead of disclosing that you were laid off.

Honestly, as an engineering manager on the hiring side, I haven't seen any negative perception in these times when candidates disclose they were laid off - its become so common as of late & often not due to the candidates' fault that it's a non-issue for us. I know a manager trying to extend a formal offer to one such candidate who revealed that they were laid off. I especially appreciate honesty in a candidate when they admit they don't know something & try to set the conversation around working with the info they have as presented to them, creating space for an open conversation around questions being asked instead of viewing it as a Q&A session. Those tend to be the candidates who get the highest marks from me.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#324

Post by anon50118810 » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

rr808 wrote: post #259

deeptote wrote: post #185

The lesson here is to be overemployed, do at least one interview process a quarter, and understand that companies don't give AF about you.

That is a big lesson I learned. I worked at a job for 8 years without looking elsewhere and when I got laid off I was really stuck because the market and interviewing circuit had completely changed.

I'm not sure it's a good trade-off to interview constantly even when you have a job just to remove a bit of the learning curve if you lose your job unexpectedly.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#325

Post by w10-1 » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

zer00eyz wrote: post #315

I survived the dot com crash (yes I'm old). I have hired (interviewing team member, or hiring manager) hundreds of engineers. If you are hearing "let me know if I can help" (number 5) you might be doing something wrong. You should be hearing some version of " I will talk to my boss" or "I will call for you" or "XXX person I know is looking". I have a list of about 30 people who if they call me I'm going to go out of…

"We brought along the people we thought were the best, who we got along with, who would get the job done"

I really appreciate the sentiment. In my experience such networks have been self-serving and mostly exclusionary, rewarding loyalty more than competence.

"You need to make some changes" is not particularly helpful when you're outside the fold. What's typically unstated is something about loyalty, esp. not disclosing the mistakes of others.

The best advice someone could give?

1. Achieve impressive things

2. Never give anyone a reason to dislike you

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#326

Post by bilvar » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:45 PM UTC

oldstrangers wrote: post #317

bilvar wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that Marx's definition of capitalist is the 'historical definition'? The term predates Marx. Moreover, words progressively change definitions depending on cultural and intellectual trends.

Because... I wrote the comment, and in the context of my comment, I am referring to the traditional idea of a "capitalist class". There's also no new revised understanding of "capitalists" that includes everyone with a small business. Even in "21st century economics", a capitalist is still traditionally considered someone who owns the means of production at the absolute top of the supply chain (the owners and control…

Again, a capitalist is someone who deploys capital to provide a product or service. Not someone who is at the top of a supply chain. This is only the definition in Marxian 19th century economic theories. Saying that it's the historical definition shows lack of intellectual diversification.

Supplying yourself X & Y goods from the market to produce Z good or service does not make you a labourer. By that logic is someone who owns a car factory NOT a capitalist because he needs to supply himself steel from another capitalist whose factories produce steel? Or is the steel factory owner NOT a capitalist because he needs to provide himself with tools from another capitalist? That makes completely no sense.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#327

Post by sciurus » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:45 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #228

Damogran6 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This late in my career, I've found 5 of my 7 SIEMs are gone, and the last one is on life support. The one I'm managing now will not be around by the time I retire. You start to see the patterns and futility and cycles and think 'maybe my career is not making things better, it's keeping the mortgage paid?' That and while I'm I can get rehired past 50...do I really want to do that dance again?

SIEM?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_information_and_eve...

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#328

Post by beckingz » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

w10-1 wrote: post #325

zer00eyz wrote: post #315

I survived the dot com crash (yes I'm old). I have hired (interviewing team member, or hiring manager) hundreds of engineers. If you are hearing "let me know if I can help" (number 5) you might be doing something wrong. You should be hearing some version of " I will talk to my boss" or "I will call for you" or "XXX person I know is looking". I have a list of about 30 people who if they call me I'm going to go out of…

"We brought along the people we thought were the best, who we got along with, who would get the job done" I really appreciate the sentiment. In my experience such networks have been self-serving and mostly exclusionary, rewarding loyalty more than competence. "You need to make some changes" is not particularly helpful when you're outside the fold. What's typically unstated is something about loyalty, esp. not disclos…

That's pretty good advice. Get stuff done and be likable is good.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#329

Post by Beaver117 » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #316

harshalizee wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. Software devs are people too. They burn out, take time off to travel, reflect, take care of family, or just down on their luck being unemployed. The only advice I'd consider paramount is to take stock of themselves financially and mentally, to assure themselves that they can take on the chaos and uncertainty that follows. Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resu…

What if they showed up with a gap and simply said "I have plenty of money and took the time to myself, my family and my interests"? (I've never had a resume gap but that's going to be my explanation if/when I do.)

It's bad to say that. Companies don't want their employees to be financially secure and have the leverage to quit at any time.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#330

Post by 0xmarcin » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 6:50 PM UTC

pronlover723 wrote: post #11

#1 it's lonely? April 2020, 1 month into the pandemic. I found the pandemic lonely. I saw less than 1 person a month for the first 14 months of the pandemic. And i find WFH incredibly lonely. I haven't recovered. I'm utterly alone most weeks. I see no one. Even if I go to work, no one is there. I moved cities a year ago and have only 1 friend and 2 acquaintances in the new city. 2 of those 3 are married and I see the…

Loneliness is bad in itself, but it can get worse if you are:

- Not going outside every day

- Not keeping yourself fit

- Eating junk food

In my region there is a lot of office only/mostly hybrid (3+ days in the office) jobs, probably for the reason that you mention. Of course when I ask why I need to be in the office people tell me about culture and stuff... But the true reason is probably more along the lines: loneliness, small baby crying at home, apartment not appropriate for remote work, annoying roommates/spouse/during divorce.

Maybe changing jobs right now is not the best idea - so I will not suggest it. I will only suggest to get real human contact, as being on-line and talking on forums/social media does not work (at least in my case).

If you have a chance you may try to find some meetup for startup entrepreneurs, even if you are not interested in startups. I find people there to be really hyped and full of positive energy. Usually there is also a motivational speaker there. YMMV but in my city there are some free and open meetings like this.