Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#161

Post by fulafel » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:41 AM UTC

morcheeba wrote: post #57

rolenthedeep wrote: post #30

Huh, I wonder how they manage to pick up the tiny amount of RF energy a normal phone can output from that far away, and through the noise of literally millions of other phones in the satellite's field of view. Gotta be some real weird RF voodoo happening in there.

You are correct - two things happening here: 1. Picking up RF energy from far away. This is the easy part - cell phone antennas are already a big compromise and can be improved on if you increase size or cost. Instead of omni-directional antennas and low-power amplifiers, a directional antenna and low noise amp will work wonders. Cell phones already have extra power to get through buildings and trees; in this case th…

There is no mention in the article of using external antennas with the existing phones.

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#162

Post by bombolo » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:43 AM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #58

daydream wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, so far they only promised to. Apple’s solution works today. Consumers are using it. This is mentioned in the article.

Apple’s solution is to have you find the signal and manually point to it to send a very small payload on a very slow link. If we’re looking for existing technology, current actually working GPS phones would be a better showcase of what’s possible.

You know how slow unassisted GPS is?

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#163

Post by tokai » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:45 AM UTC

cpncrunch wrote: post #52

version_five wrote: post #27

This will hopefully give Canadians real options for mobile phone plans. It will be "illegal" because our telecom monopoly (oligopoly) writes the laws, but presumably with a US address it will be possible, like it was with satellite dishes, to get a proper phone on a network that doesn't gouge you. I'll be curious what the monopoly does to try and fight it.

There are affordable plans in Canada. It's just that they aren't really advertised. I have unlimited Canadian talk+text + 2GB for $35/month. Without the data (just unlimited domestic text+voice) it's $20/month. This plan isn't public...for some reason my wife got emailed about it and she got signed up. They allowed me to sign up too, even though they hadn't notified me about it. I think these plans are used to entice…

That's the secrete good offer plan? Its extremely expensive. The same price in the Nordic countries would give you at least 20GB data and free roaming in all of EU.

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#164

Post by fulafel » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:47 AM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #98

BurningFrog wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phones do receive data from GPS satellites.

I've run into the reverse misconception, people think they need cell service for GPS to work.

This is half true, A-GPS makes it work much better.

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#165

Post by kzrdude » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:51 AM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #98

BurningFrog wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phones do receive data from GPS satellites.

I've run into the reverse misconception, people think they need cell service for GPS to work.

Location service uses gps (and similar satellite networks), cell and wifi info combined, so they are kind of not wrong. But it's not needed for "GPS" but it's hard to cut through the layers for people?

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#166

Post by rlt » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:51 AM UTC

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #151

rlt wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a tired take. Strong leaders are able to marshal engineers to build things like the iPhone, electric cars, reusable rockets. Both Steve Jobs and Elon Musk excelled at this, and just because they're not doing the low level engineering work doesn't mean they don't get any credit. And by all accounts Steve Jobs was extremely involved in the UX design of the original iPhone, and Elon Musk is often involved i…

> Strong leaders are able to marshal engineers to build things like the iPhone, electric cars, reusable rockets talking about tired takes... The real refreshing take would be acknowledging that these things would exist even without them and that the cult of personalities is such an antiquate way to explain the success (or the demise) of companies (looks like Americans have learned nothing from the fall of Stalin). An…

> that these things would exist even without them

Would these things eventually have been invented / brought to market by someone else? Probably. Infinite monkeys etc.

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#167

Post by kzrdude » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:55 AM UTC

b112 wrote: post #143

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. government still has jurisdiction over Starlink. As for crypto currencies, they seem irrelevant to this topic.

It's also weird, as cash predates crypto, and is actually untraceable.

Which is also weird because every banknote has a unique number. So it's better traceable if we wanted to.

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#168

Post by lormayna » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 10:01 AM UTC

martyvis wrote: post #66

dmitrygr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, so far they only promised to. So, probably it’ll be done the same way that Teslas could self drive, across the county, unassisted in 2017

It's strange that you think that this is so unachievable yet we have things like Bluetooth, WiFi, LoRa and regular cell phone all working with relatively tiny amounts of power and discriminating from the noise generated by other nonparticipants. This would amaze anyone from before the 70s.

> LoRa

LoRa bitrate is very low and the range of LoRa is not even comparable with satellite communication. Moreover, normal smartphone are not LoRa compatible.

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#169

Post by snovv_crash » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 10:13 AM UTC

sgtnoodle wrote: post #56

rolenthedeep wrote: post #30

Huh, I wonder how they manage to pick up the tiny amount of RF energy a normal phone can output from that far away, and through the noise of literally millions of other phones in the satellite's field of view. Gotta be some real weird RF voodoo happening in there.

Cell phones can supposedly connect to towers up to 25 miles away (presumably at the slowest supported data rate.) Starlink is about 350 miles up. Let's round up to 400 to allow for satellites not being directly overhead. That's 2^4 times farther away, or 24dB of signal difference. It seems like a sufficiently fancy phased antenna array on the satellite could compensate for that. Also, the atmosphere is 99% gone at 20…

I didn't realise that 4G/5G could connect to receivers that far away. From memory, the maximum Timing Advance in 2G corresponded to ~25km. After that the phones won't get ACKs fast enough due to speed of light and will assume that the response isn't for them.

WiFi has similar limits, but much shorter. I know some usecases of WiFi transceivers with longer distances (~5km) which required tweaked firmware that wasn't technically wifi-compliant, to have longer receive windows.

Re: Existing smartphones will connect with new satellite constellations in 2023

#170

Post by IntrepidWorm » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 10:13 AM UTC

onethought wrote: post #154

hericium wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This super-villain narrative of Musk is hilariously comical. Where is it coming from? For me it came from Musk downplaying COVID for financial gain. Other than that, he's become proficient at discrediting himself as a reasonable, trustworthy person and presenting himself as a detached from reality lunatic who doesn't know when to stfu and how to behave. When people like this have a lot (too much?) power that's when…

So do we all pick our own billionaires now? Like Musk is the villain of the Left and Gates is the villain of the right? I reckon people should focus on fixing a system that allows individuals to amass such power/wealth. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

To fix the system, you have to hate both.