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Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

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Re: Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

#91

Post by skrtskrt »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #73
dougSF70 wrote: post #10

Yes, but. Most real world engineers could also be software engineers too. I studied Mechanical Engineering and had to learn Fortran and Pascal as part of my undergrad. What I find strange is that some of the best software engineers are not as strong at Math as you would expect. Of course there are exceptions (and no doubt they are all here on HN!). So while real world engineers can cross the divide to become software…

I think it’s hard to switch jobs in all cases and I doubt any universal rule applies. Software engineering is more than writing Pascal. It’s like saying you can be a mechanical engineer because you learned physics in college.

disagree, at a base level almost all engineering is systems analysis. Understanding a system of queues is not massively different from a system of forces or a system of chemical reactions in terms of what sort of thinking it takes.

Coding and using coding tools is a bump in the road and then eventually that all fades into the background and you’re thinking just in terms of systems again.

Re: Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

#92

Post by elihu »

eikenberry wrote: post #34

Why compare those of us who write software with engineers? It makes more sense to compare us to say.. composers, poets or something. Writing software is an art form and has nothing in common with engineering other than some uncreative types trying to come up with a more official sounding name.

Writing code can be an art form, but I think there's a lot of software out there that really does need to be developed with the same amount of rigor as you'd use to design a bridge or a building, because people are depending on it functioning correctly. Nothing catches on fire if a singer makes a lousy rhyme. (At least, not unless they have a really harsh audience.)

Re: Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

#93

Post by iancmceachern »

eikenberry wrote: post #87
iancmceachern wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MechE here. I argue that what I do, designing medical devices, is exactly the same. More an art than a science, and more similar to software engineering than any of those other things you list.

Cool. I've known chemical, civil and structural engineers but never had the chance to meet/speak to a mechanical engineer. Interesting to know you look at your profession the same. Though I still think it (programming) is more akin to music or maybe philosophy than traditional engineering as I've heard it before. The focus on artificial languages, concepts and the severe lack of physical restrictions to guide you.

Totally, in software the rules are human made. One and zero are constructs of the himself mind. In Physics, which is all mechanical engineering is, the rules are created by the universe.

Re: Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

#94

Post by _8j50 »

Not a software engineer myself but I fully disagree with you OP. People get paid for how hard it is to replace them and how much they are needed not for the hard or more tangible work they do.

There is nothing pampered about WFH or Rust vs Go. I feel like you are despising software engineers to make others look better? It is not a competition and you can praise others without putting down software engineers.

Would you feel better if software engineers got paid a lot less as office wage slaves?

Truth is, those fields get paid less (not always btw) because there are too many people in them vs the demand. Learning software enginetring is very hard and unpleasant for most people. Most people don't want to be stuck in frony of a computer working om intangible code either and that's why you get paid more.

I try to get relatives to get in tech but they simply don't want to and do other things, which is fine. But it is unfair to say people who don't want to work in better paying fields (and stabilize the pay) should get paid more despite thr crowding in their field. You can still appreciate them for taking on lesser paying jobs that have more value to society and you shouldn't stop there, everyone from janitors to contractors add a lot lf societal value.

Re: Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

#95

Post by shortcake27 »

SimianSci wrote: post #61
barbazoo wrote: post #20

Let's pay respect in ways other than money too. Money isn't everything and the goal isn't to have everybody ranked by income as a proxy for how useful or how much "worth" they are.

There are vanishingly few places in the US where you can occupy space without paying money. If you don't believe it is all that matters, you will quickly be reminded of how wrong you are to believe that.

My favourite example of this is Christopher Knight. Fed up with society, he lived alone in a forest for almost 30 years. He broke into people’s houses when they weren’t home to steal batteries and when he was caught and charged, a condition of his release was that he was to re-integrate into society; he was not allowed to return to the forest. This is a really good reminder that you are only free to do what you want as long as you produce for the economy. If you don’t produce, the country will find a way to force you.

Re: Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

#96

Post by shortcake27 »

_8j50 wrote: post #94

Not a software engineer myself but I fully disagree with you OP. People get paid for how hard it is to replace them and how much they are needed not for the hard or more tangible work they do. There is nothing pampered about WFH or Rust vs Go. I feel like you are despising software engineers to make others look better? It is not a competition and you can praise others without putting down software engineers. Would yo…

> Most people don't want to be stuck in frony of a computer working om intangible code either and that's why you get paid more.

I feel like this hits the nail on the head. Neither me nor anyone else I know would work as a software engineer if the pay were significantly lower. I daydream of stacking shelves. If that paid half, I’d absolutely take it over software engineering. But it only pays 1/4, so I kill myself in software engineering and burn out every few years with enough money to pay for sabbaticals. My point is that if software engineering paid less, you wouldn’t get good software because none of the good engineers would actually work software engineering jobs.

Re: Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

#97

Post by amelius »

syntaxing wrote: post #30

Mech E here. The reality we’re paid less is because it’s harder to make a profit (but to be fair, MechE in tech get paid well still). Making good margins is really hard. You have one shot to do anything. Worse of all, anyone can take apart your design, reverse engineer and sell your product by 20% less because they don’t have to worry about recovering R&D. Most Americans won’t even bat an eye, they’ll just buy whatev…

Yeah, but you have patent protection. Software engineers don't have that in all parts of the world.

Re: Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

#98

Post by deepzn »

wavy-dingo wrote: post #82
c7DJTLrn wrote: post #51

Hats off to just... non-engineers in general. Some of the most important people in society like nurses, teachers, and drivers get paid absolutely terribly and are being forced to fight tooth and nail just to get a pay rise that matches inflation. We tap keys on a keyboard and drink coffee in air conditioned offices (or at home) and get paid stupid amounts.

Plumbers, garbage men, the cooks, the doctors. The people who take care of our land and skies. The people who protect us. The scientists solving harder problems. So many people should be appreciated

Like the recent physicists who made the breakthrough in nuclear fusion. Or the chemists, biologists and virologists who made or contributed to the mRNA breakthroughs and development of the Covid vaccine, or really any vaccines in recent decades.

Re: Tell HN: Thanks and hats off to all the non software engineers

#99

Post by stonecharioteer »

s5300 wrote: post #21

Going mechanical engineering in the U.S. is such an incredibly poor ROI at this point, it’s ridiculous. My observations have led me to believe MBAs presume everything can be outsourced to India or Soviet satellites. Unsure of where that’s going to lead us, but I know a lot of salty MechE’s who genuinely wanted to be MechE’s for whatever reasons they had, but just can’t pass up the salary increase to be had in… other…

I studied mechanical engineering in India and switched to software because it's extremely poor ROI even here. You get staggeringly higher pay if you're a good developer. I teach CS grads, and this is becoming so clear to me that not everyone seems to be good at doing this stuff. When someone outsources to India, and then complains about bad quality, it's because the way kids pick disciplines is purely based on the perceived prestige and the money. Every other field pays less than engineering, and every other discipline pays less than CS. Our testing system, the JEE, makes it hard for anyone to get what they're passionate about. They only get good at taking standardized tests. Very few people are lucky enough to be able to pivot to doing what they love and are good at.
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