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US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

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Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#71

Post by super256 »

Msurrow wrote: post #43
bilekas wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its easier for someone to obtain and identify your DNA than it is your fingertips or even your face. Just think of how much you leave around all the time. If that's all on records with facial images, your face is certainly an identifiable metric of your biology.

Obtain perhaps, but identify no. Identification requires a database of samples to match against. Way more FP and FI databases than DNA databases, so not much to use as a gallery for identification..

> Obtain perhaps, but identify no. Identification requires a database of samples to match against.

Those databases already exists (just look at the MyHeritage, FamilyTreeDNA, 23andMe etc companies). Furthermore, DNA has the advantage, that you can find someone via relatives. The person to be identified doesn't have to be in the database. It's sufficient if his brother or father is in that db. Afaik this is not the case for fingerprints.

Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#72

Post by DocTomoe »

counttheforks wrote: post #22
jimbob45 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intrusively versus non-intrusively acquired? It's just a feeling I have and I don't think that I'm alone on this.

And you think obtaining a hair sample is somehow intrusive?

Just cutting some hair won't do it. Given that DNA is in the follicle, you would have to extract a hair, e.g. pull it out. Doing so without consent or demanding it is a violation of medical ethics and/or assault.

Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#73

Post by adventured »

jeremyjh wrote: post #67
jacquesm wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't been back there since 2007 and have no intention to ever go back there. I missed a couple of funerals of friends because of that but the typical 'welcome' (I use the term loosely) afforded by DHS to visitors to the USA has persuaded me that I have better things to do with my life. The decision not to re-visit was made somewhere between the point where my shoes were confiscated because they might be used as…

Did you read TFA? It would only be used for people entering the US.

Nobody in this thread apparently read it. This has turned into a Reddit America-bad thread, it's embarrassing for HN.

Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#74

Post by kkfx »

jacquesm wrote: post #28

I sincerely hope that the EU will give the appropriate but unprintable response to this request. At the time the biometric data was first collected plenty of people warned about this exact thing and we were repeatedly assured that it would never happen. Let's see if that is still true today. Never is such a long time...

Unfortunately UE is on an even worst path: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2019.03.023 and the "underway" https://www.soprasteria.com/newsroom/press-releases/details/...

Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#75

Post by 082349872349872 »

At least this seems like a cross-superstate* request, which makes it less likely without reciprocity:

  my analysis
  Oceania  : US + Airstrip One + ... (5 eyes, etc.) 
  Eurasia  : EU
  Eastasia : CN / RU+BY+RS (disunited ATM)
* Was Orwell reading James Burnham (1941) to come up with his superstates?

Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#76

Post by [deleted] »

flanflan wrote: post #51
hardlianotion wrote: post #23

One question that always seems to be unclear and insufficiently negotiated is reciprocity. What is the US going to offer in return. If they do offer to reciprocate, it actually needs to be delivered before the deal is live. That said, I think it is a shitty deal for these leaky, insecure, bad faith entities to be able to negotiate off to the side with our sensitive personal data like this.

> What is the US going to offer in return. Nothing, it's a hostage situation.

[deleted]

Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#77

Post by LarryMullins »

Whether it's good local privacy laws in your country or a good privacy-respecting TOS from a company, both are basically worthless when a bigger entity comes barging into the picture.

So your government collects biometric data but passes laws promising not to misuse it... you may very well find that those promises are worth less than dirt when a country with leverage over your own starts making demands that your government feels obliged or coerced to obey.

Or you give lots of your personal data to a software company that promises privacy in their TOS. Great.. until that company gets bought out by the likes of Google or Facebook, then those promises evaporate and good luck doing anything about it.

The solution is to never trust any promises of privacy, and don't hand over personal data to anybody unless it's taken from you at gunpoint. It doesn't matter what promises are given, because all promises can be broken with enough leverage.

I recommend that Europeans petition their governments to delete such databases now, so that compliance with American demands simply won't be possible. Delete the databases now so your governments can't fold to pressure later.

Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#78

Post by nixgeek »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #63
nixgeek wrote: post #21

Probably the most interesting part of this is if states don’t integrate by 2027 they will no longer be eligible for the Visa Waiver Program (VWP). That adds a lot of friction for citizens of that state to travel to the U.S. for any reason.

So what? If the rules are the same for all eu countries and with reciprocity, then the US will be isolated, and any eu-us business will be harder to do, and EU will do more trade with other countries, which also won't give biometric data to US, and US will be locked out of them too.

Sure, but you’re going to disclose all of the same biometric and criminal database information should you then do the U.S. visa application, so this does nothing to improve your privacy or stop the U.S. having this information.

You need to travel to the U.S. with these changes? You still use ESTA and VWP, and the U.S. pulls what they need via an IT integration.

You need to travel to the U.S. and these changes get a “No” from EU states? You go through the visa process for tourism or business, they get your biometrics and background checks through that process. It takes longer. It costs more money. It is more onerous to you as an applicant.

Every time you cross the border as an alien you are fingerprinted and photos are taken (exceptions are given for diplomats).

In short, it’s the same outcome for U.S. travel and your only way to stop the U.S. having this information is to not travel there…

Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#79

Post by sneak »

robin_reala wrote: post #52
ryandrake wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I’m totally against any normalization of the collection/sharing of biometric data. But just to play Devil’s Advocate: Let’s say I’m a boring white midwestern HVAC contractor with a mortgage and 2.5 kids. Big Bad China acquires a picture of my face and my fingerprints. Also my DNA, why not, just for argument’s sake! I never plan to visit China. How does this biometric sharing affect me, my rights, my safet…

The typical counter argument goes something like China installs a webcam in your bathroom and broadcasts the stream on purely national TV. How does that affect you? It’s just some personal video that’s never going impinge on your life. Another way of putting it: all personal information should by default be kept private, until there’s a specific need from you for that information to be processed by known people.

This doesn't actually answer the question, though, as people value their home interior video privacy a lot more than they value their biometric privacy.

Re: US Government demands direct police access to European biometric data [pdf]

#80

Post by patrec »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #3

I think it is vital we continue to discuss it here, but at the same time my conversations with my extended family show that people overall do not share my concerns over these at all. I do not get upset, because coming from a former soviet union country, I am trying hard to understand their frame of mind ( partially to see if there is a way to counter it ) and lot of it seems to a result from a deep trust in the syste…

Well, you could try mentioning that Turkey managed to leak the personal data of more or less its entire adult population (50M people or so; https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/04/database-...).

Or, maybe closer to home, that several European states were complicit in helping the US to kidnap, torture and imprison their innocent citizens (the euphemism for accidentally kidnapping and torturing some completely random person is "erroneous rendition" https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna10618427).

Both the US and European allies went through great pains and costs to provide the Taliban with detail biometric data for kill lists https://theconversation.com/the-taliban-reportedly-have-cont....

For just $68 you can even get the collector's edition on ebay, which includes not just lots of biometric and personal data but also comes with the original capture device (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/technology/for-sale-on-eb...).

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